3800 M90 Build

[jd4242]

Ahh okay.. you sneaky sneaky fool you...

i have a 3"body lift so the motor can go up alot

 

[Dono]

That M90 looks pretty massive on top of the block. Wow.

 

[jd4242]

That M90 looks pretty massive on top of the block. Wow.

Yea look at the side shot,its bigger than the motor.remember this is a gm 3800 m90 gen 3 its the biggest m90 besides the jaguars,blade/housing wise.

 

[jd4242]

really didnt get any work done today but did alot more mock up and test fitting.came to the conclusion that a 3" 90* pipe with a clr of 12 would not work to well.also a 90* then a 100* bend into the charger would not be best for clearance.so i called up the people at Global Technology & Engineering and talked to the guy that makes the pipes.he said he could make me anything i want,witch is awesome!!so i decided to go with a 11ga 80* bend with a clr of 9" and with 12" Tangent Length.this will make the bend a lot tighter and come in at an angle,this will get the pipe closer to the charger on the side and gain me some clearance for the firewall.then i can just put a 90* bend into the charger and the pipe will run parallel with the charger because of the offset of the charger inlet.the tb will sit right where the old ac use to be at,then a 45*coupling on the tb connected to a 45* pipe,this will bring the pipe out between/under the belt and snout and parallel with the radiator, then will 60* over to where my old filter sat at.the pics will explain this a little better.also my intercooler showed up today!!on to some pics

and mock up pics,this is not the pipe but about where it will come out at

 

[jd4242]

o also got a new fan.its a fan from a 3.8 supercharged thunderbird.these are the same as the 3.8 Taurus fans but better and harder to find!!it has larger blades and larger blade circumference,true 17".the shroud is smaller also.its said to pull 4300cfms on high so alittle more than a regular 3.8 and about the same as a mrk fan but smaller.paid $70 shipped.say good bye to the HHR!!!!!!

 

[DominicanX]

Lookin Good JD, can't wait to see that out on the trail.

 

[jd4242]

Lookin Good JD, can't wait to see that out on the trail.

thanks buddy"SEE" shoot i cant wait to hear it boosting up a hill slinging mud!!!!!

 

[rocket 5979]

really didnt get any work done today but did alot more mock up and test fitting.came to the conclusion that a 3" 90* pipe with a clr of 12 would not work to well.also a 90* then a 100* bend into the charger would not be best for clearance.so i called up the people at Global Technology & Engineering and talked to the guy that makes the pipes.he said he could make me anything i want,witch is awesome!!so i decided to go with a 11ga 80* bend with a clr of 9" and with 12" Tangent Length.this will make the bend a lot tighter and come in at an angle,this will get the pipe closer to the charger on the side and gain me some clearance for the firewall.then i can just put a 90* bend into the charger and the pipe will run parallel with the charger because of the offset of the charger inlet.the tb will sit right where the old ac use to be at,then a 45*coupling on the tb connected to a 45* pipe,this will bring the pipe out between/under the belt and snout and parallel with the radiator, then will 60* over to where my old filter sat at.the pics will explain this a little better.also my intercooler showed up today!!on to some pics

Perhaps no work was done but it sure looks like you are making progress. I am glad the guys at Global Tech were able to take care of you.

I am curious of your intercooler. It appears as if it is an aftermarket transmission cooler (or similar) that has been sandwiched and sealed between two machined plates of aluminum. Very simplistic design but could also be effective. Do you happen to have any data from the manufacturer regarding intake aircharge cooling ability? I was thinking of a way to manufacture my own micro-intercooler for an upcoming JY supercharger build and had pondered doing something similar. I didn't realize other places were already doing this, so I am curious to see how well it has been working out.

 

[jd4242]

Perhaps no work was done but it sure looks like you are making progress. I am glad the guys at Global Tech were able to take care of you.

I am curious of your intercooler. It appears as if it is an aftermarket transmission cooler (or similar) that has been sandwiched and sealed between two machined plates of aluminum. Very simplistic design but could also be effective. Do you happen to have any data from the manufacturer regarding intake aircharge cooling ability? I was thinking of a way to manufacture my own micro-intercooler for an upcoming JY supercharger build and had pondered doing something similar. I didn't realize other places were already doing this, so I am curious to see how well it has been working out.

yea thanks again for the link to those guys.the ic is from zzperformance,they make two different styles.this is there short stack one at 1"thick,the make a stage 2 and is 2.25" thick.i didnt want or think i would need there stage 2 as i will never boost that high.the ss is said to lower temps by 50-90* but i have read on there forum that people are seeing better than that.people have see lower than ambient temps when the fill there tanks with ice water.im running this front cooler with a fan on it also
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...=1062&osCsid=e52083ba966446298d02ab30f196fff2
here is some info on the ic and link
http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/196-Intercooler-Cores.aspx
The Short Stack intercooler core only raises the blower by one inch. This core will fit under any hood with no modifications. Temperature drops are between 50 and 90 degrees depending on blower rpm and boost level. http://www.zzperformance.com/products_img/145_3.jpg

This amount of temperature drop allows a .2￾ drop in pulleys size. We recommend that a near stock GP run a 3.2 pulley, and GTP with rockers should be able to run a 3.1￾ pulley with no KR if O2s are tuned. Many users have run this combo with a 3.0 pulley and no KR, but we do not recommend this for anyone unless they are scanning their car regularly and do not have any KR.



We are now selling the 2nd run of our SS intercoolers and have the outlet moved forward ¼. We have found this increases cooling efficiency. This outlet design matches our machined intake and ported blower outlet design. While a ported blower and/or machined intake are not required, they will increase the performance of your SS intercooler core.





The Stage 2 intercooler core has undergone many revisions over the years. We've moved the outlet forward, lightened the core by a few pounds, changed the heat exchanger to a 20% denser core with larger inlet/outlet, improved machining quality, and lowered the price. It is made from billet aluminum and raises the blower 2.25￾. It will fit under a stock GP hood with no modifications and under aftermarket hoods with our cradle spacers. It sports temperature drops of 110-160 degrees depending on blower speed and boost level.

 

[rocket 5979]

yea thanks again for the link to those guys.the ic is from zzperformance,they make two different styles.this is there short stack one at 1"thick,the make a stage 2 and is 2.25" thick.i didnt want or think i would need there stage 2 as i will never boost that high.the ss is said to lower temps by 50-90* but i have read on there forum that people are seeing better than that.people have see lower than ambient temps when the fill there tanks with ice water.im running this front cooler with a fan on it also
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...=1062&osCsid=e52083ba966446298d02ab30f196fff2
here is some info on the ic and link
http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/196-Intercooler-Cores.aspx
The Short Stack intercooler core only raises the blower by one inch. This core will fit under any hood with no modifications. Temperature drops are between 50 and 90 degrees depending on blower rpm and boost level. http://www.zzperformance.com/products_img/145_3.jpg

This amount of temperature drop allows a .2￾ drop in pulleys size. We recommend that a near stock GP run a 3.2 pulley, and GTP with rockers should be able to run a 3.1￾ pulley with no KR if O2s are tuned. Many users have run this combo with a 3.0 pulley and no KR, but we do not recommend this for anyone unless they are scanning their car regularly and do not have any KR.



We are now selling the 2nd run of our SS intercoolers and have the outlet moved forward ¼. We have found this increases cooling efficiency. This outlet design matches our machined intake and ported blower outlet design. While a ported blower and/or machined intake are not required, they will increase the performance of your SS intercooler core.





The Stage 2 intercooler core has undergone many revisions over the years. We've moved the outlet forward, lightened the core by a few pounds, changed the heat exchanger to a 20% denser core with larger inlet/outlet, improved machining quality, and lowered the price. It is made from billet aluminum and raises the blower 2.25￾. It will fit under a stock GP hood with no modifications and under aftermarket hoods with our cradle spacers. It sports temperature drops of 110-160 degrees depending on blower speed and boost level.

Man I wish I would have known you were looking for the heat exchanger too. You most likely could have easily used a 2003-2004 Cobra HE and those only go for about $30-$45 or so instead of you having to pay $145. I am sure the one you got will work real well, it just sucks I wasn't able to help you save a little cash. the Cobra HE's are roughly 28-30" long, about 6" tall, and 1.5" thick. I have had one sitting in the garage for a while now waiting on a project to be used.

Thanks for the other info on the AWIC. Even a 50-90 degree drop in IAT is better than nothing.

 

[jd4242]

Man I wish I would have known you were looking for the heat exchanger too. You most likely could have easily used a 2003-2004 Cobra HE and those only go for about $30-$45 or so instead of you having to pay $145. I am sure the one you got will work real well, it just sucks I wasn't able to help you save a little cash. the Cobra HE's are roughly 28-30" long, about 6" tall, and 1.5" thick. I have had one sitting in the garage for a while now waiting on a project to be used.

Thanks for the other info on the AWIC. Even a 50-90 degree drop in IAT is better than nothing.

you mean more like this?i dont know if i have room for that,my driverside half of the radiator has 2 trans cooler and an oil cooler right there.that leaves the passenger side open so a half cooler fits perfect,also it has a fill,drain and temp prob hole.i do need a pump thoalso yea a 90* drop on ic and a said to be a 30* drop from p+p is about a120* temp drop and thats pretty good.charge temp is my biggest worry especially since im running 10.5:1 compression
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...=1063&osCsid=e52083ba966446298d02ab30f196fff2

 

[rocket 5979]

you mean more like this?i dont know if i have room for that,my driverside half of the radiator has 2 trans cooler and an oil cooler right there.that leaves the passenger side open so a half cooler fits perfect,also it has a fill,drain and temp prob hole.i do need a pump thoalso yea a 90* drop on ic and a said to be a 30* drop from p+p is about a120* temp drop and thats pretty good.charge temp is my biggest worry especially since im running 10.5:1 compression
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...=1063&osCsid=e52083ba966446298d02ab30f196fff2

Yes the Cobra one is similar in size and shape but I cannot recall the exact dimensions. Charge temp reduction is normally only as good as the thermal transfer ability of the AWIC itself. This is because the HE is almost always far bigger and so the limiting cooling factor doesn't really rest with it but with how quickly the AWIC can absorb heat from the aircharge. Going with an insanely large HE does minimize heat soak on a hot day though. Do you have an IC pump in mind already or still looking for one? This is something that I would spend a little more on since it is electronic and can fail if made cheaply. The lightnings, Cobra's and allot of Kenne Bell supercharger systems use the Bosch inercooler pump which can be had for anywhere around $80-100. Part #0392022002

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BCH-0392022002

 

[jd4242]

Yes the Cobra one is similar in size and shape but I cannot recall the exact dimensions. Charge temp reduction is normally only as good as the thermal transfer ability of the AWIC itself. This is because the HE is almost always far bigger and so the limiting cooling factor doesn't really rest with it but with how quickly the AWIC can absorb heat from the aircharge. Going with an insanely large HE does minimize heat soak on a hot day though. Do you have an IC pump in mind already or still looking for one? This is something that I would spend a little more on since it is electronic and can fail if made cheaply. The lightnings, Cobra's and allot of Kenne Bell supercharger systems use the Bosch inercooler pump which can be had for anywhere around $80-100. Part #0392022002

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/BCH-0392022002

yea thats the pump im getting.glad you posted that,was about to pay $115
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/prod...=1001&osCsid=e52083ba966446298d02ab30f196fff2

 

[jd4242]

hey rocket?somewhere in one of your threads i saw a boost calculation formula,cant remember where though.do you remember it or where it was at?would it work for me or is it a different calculation for my charger?

 

[rocket 5979]

hey rocket?somewhere in one of your threads i saw a boost calculation formula,cant remember where though.do you remember it or where it was at?would it work for me or is it a different calculation for my charger?

Yes it will get you close.

To figure pulley size from required boost level:

Step 1: Theoretical pulley ratio = ((14.7+Boost) / 14.7) x (engine liters / 2)) / Supercharger Size liters

*Assuming "0" inlet losses and 6.5" crank pulley.
For 6 psi boost with a 1.5L supercharger on a 4.0 engine: ((14.7+6) / 14.7) x (4.0/2))/ 1.5= 1.878 ratio

Step2: Supercharger pulley size = Divide the pulley ratio(1.878) into the crankshaft pulley size (6.5") to determine supercharger pulley size (3.46").




To figure boost level from known pulley size:

Step 1: Pulley ratio = crankshaft pulley diameter / charger pulley diameter 6.5" / 3.46" = 1.878 ratio

Step 2: Theoretical boost = (charger size in liters x pulley ratio) / (engine L / 2) x 14.7 - 14.7

Example: (1.5 x 1.878) / (4.0 / 2) x 14.7 - 14.7 = 6.0 lbs boost





The Eaton M90 displaces 90ci of air per rotation so that converted to liters would be 1.5 liters. I changed the examples above to reflect the engine and supercharger in this thread.

 

[jd4242]

Yes it will get you close.

((14.7+Boost) / 14.7) x (engine liters / 2)) / Supercharger Size liters = Theoretical Pully Ratio*

*Assuming "0" inlet losses and 6.5" crank pulley.
For 6 psi boost with a 1.5L supercharger on a 5.0 engine: ((14.7-6) / 14.7) x (5.0/2))/ 1.5= 2.34 ratio
Then divide the pulley ratio(2.34) into the crankshaft pulley size (6.5") to determine supercharger pulley size (2.77").
6.5/2.34 =2.77" supercharger pulley size

The Eaton M90 displaces 90ci of air per rotation so that converted to liter would be 1.5liters.

Ok going to need help with this.out enjoying a beverage right now so will get back tomorrow. But can i find out what boost would be if based of pulley sizes and motor size?

 

[rocket 5979]

Ok going to need help with this.out enjoying a beverage right now so will get back tomorrow. But can i find out what boost would be if based of pulley sizes and motor size?

Give me your pulley measurements for both crank and supercharger and I will figure it for you in a few minutes if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

 

[jd4242]

Give me your pulley measurements for both crank and supercharger and I will figure it for you in a few minutes.

Dang not home right now but the sc pulley is 3.2 i belive and crank is stock.i will double check and post measurements as soon as i get home.the guy that ran it before said he got 4lbs of boost but he had that restricted bs for intake manifold and stock tb.so i think i will get more or he should have gotten more.i have p+p heads and lower manifold but no restrictions on intake side.

 

[rocket 5979]

Dang not home right now but the sc pulley is 3.2 i belive and crank is stock.i will double check and post measurements as soon as i get home.the guy that ran it before said he got 4lbs of boost but he had that restricted bs for intake manifold and stock tb.so i think i will get more or he should have gotten more.i have p+p heads and lower manifold but no restrictions on intake side.

Remember that boost is just a measurement of restriction. So when you port and polish your heads and do other airflow improvement mods then air will flow more easily through your engine. This in turn means that your "read boost" will actually read lower, but your power will be higher because the airflow is making it through the engine much more easily. Still calculating boost will get you close and the more effectively your engine moves air the more hp per psi of boost you will gain. Efficient pd blower setups make somewhere just shy of 18-20rwhp per psi of boost, less efficient setups will only make 10-14hp per psi boost. Turbo setups, for instance, will usually take you into the 20-25rwhp per psi boost territory.

 

[jd4242]

Remember that boost is just a measurement of restriction. So when you port and polish your heads and do other airflow improvement mods then air will flow more easily through your engine. This in turn means that your "read boost" will actually read lower, but your power will be higher because the airflow is making it through the engine much more easily. Still calculating boost will get you close and the more effectively your engine moves air the more hp per psi of boost you will gain. Efficient pd blower setups make somewhere just shy of 18-20rwhp per psi of boost, less efficient setups will only make 10-14hp per psi boost. Turbo setups, for instance, will usually take you into the 20-25rwhp per psi boost territory.

Yep totally understand that.thats what i was saying,he had restrictions on inlet side and i less on output side so may equal out to what he was getting.i think 4lbs was real low for pulley size.i seen others on here make 4-5 on the 3.8 pulley.i have 3.2 on sc and im having someone measure crank right now i also have 10.5:1 compression so each lb of boost will make more hp or you think that 18-20hp per lb of boost will be close,its going to have very little restrictions also,everything is ported and inlet side shouldnt be restricting at all.