A completely insane/stupid 4.9l swap. Yes, I'm serious. | Page 4 | Ford Explorer Forums - Serious Explorations

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A completely insane/stupid 4.9l swap. Yes, I'm serious.

I don't know about your state, but in my state I could take a 2000 explorer with a different engine and register it as a homebuilt/kit car, pay a little extra, and be street legal.
No you couldn't. Unless the inspection station people are dumb enough to believe that your mass produced, very recognizable, late model Explorer is instead some homebuilt creation. Nevermind that Ford Vin#, which would be all kinds of scary-bad illegal to tamper with/remove. Now, that said, depending on how your state implements the FEDERAL Clean Air Act, what might be legal is to install an engine the SAME model year, or NEWER as the chassis (2000), complete with the DONOR ENGINE'S complete, fully intact emission system, in the original application, as certified by the OEM manufacturer. That "complete emission system" would also include the FULL original exhaust system, as it was on the vehicle the engine came from; every bend, exact same pipe length/size,etc.... That still applies whether that exhaust system fits in your project vehicle or not. Technically, you can't change a single bend, or you've deviated from the original certified configuration. In other words, let's say you wanted to put a late model Mustang motor in the Explorer. You will be required to swap EVERYTHING emissions-related DIRECTLY, UNALTERED, from the Mustang to the Explorer, including the exhaust, from manifold to tailpipe.
Can you get away with it anyway? Maybe. But it is NOT "legal".

..........
A.)Secondly, in states like NE, and here in KS, there aren't any real emissions laws to speak of, and no inspections. Its like that in most agriculture driven states. ......

B.) Thirdly, I have a 95 ranger that I swapped a 351W into, with no emission stuff whatsoever, and it has a license plate and is perfectly legal here. ......

C.) Now, lets quit *****ing about this stupid **** and get on with the swap already! I want lots of pics!!!

A.) In NE, KS, and ALL 50 states in the US, there are emissions laws. Period. The FEDERAL CLEAN AIR ACT applies EVERYWHERE in the US! NO state gets to "opt out". Now, some rural/low pollution areas may not yet be required to conduct inspections yet, but most areas are, and all will be in the near future; assuming those states would like to continue to receive federal highway funding.

B.) Congratulations, you've managed to get away with it, but just because you haven't been caught, and you have a license plate, doesn't make it (the motor swap/removed emissions equipment) legal. Motor swap issues aside, simply removing/defeating an emission control device is a federal offense, punishable under the Clean Air Act, by substantial monetary penalties. And, since your '95 Ranger would have come with numerous emissions control devices, each one is a separate violation.

C.) Yes, I too would like to see pics, as I'm sure it is "interesting" to see it completed. However, there is nothing stupid at all about knowing the accurate information relevant to the issues at hand. Again, as I've said before, people are far too ignorant of, and dismissive of, facts and truth these days. Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean it isn't the answer. Again, I am NOT in favor of all these emissions laws/regulations, as they currently are. However, they ARE what they ARE, whether you want them to be or not. In order to get them changed, you must first understand what it is you want changed. Kind of like what Sun Tzu said, in the "Art of War""

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
- Sun Tzu


Sorry dont mean to drag this thread back to the topic of whether this motor swap is legal or not, im waiting to see it and i could care less if it is, But isn't the legality of swapping motors dependent on the state.I quote you carguy, being a fellow New Jerseyin (however you spell it) because i know in New Jersey they could care less about what kind of motor is in what car, well at least in South Jersey. Ive helped swap 2 350's into cherokees, and a powerstroke into a bronco. All went through inspection without one word in regards to the engine, all they care is whether it passes emissions or not. thats where i end and would like to point out that any motor should be allowed in any vehicle so long as it can legitimately pass inspection.

First, I'll address the end of your quote. I agree, that's the way it SHOULD be. However, it is not the way it is.

Now, no it is not up to the state. Emissions regulation is the purview of the Federal government, exclusively. The states are merely responsible for implementing those federal regulations. Those regulations stem from the FEDERAL Clean Air Act. It applies in all 50 states. Now the caveat is that the EPA did, in the past, ALLOW California to be "special", and implement their own, stricter laws, due to California's unique pollution issues. The EPA also ALLOWED the other states to choose to either implement the Federal (49-state) rules, OR the stricter CA rules. This stems from the principle that states, generally, can pass their own laws which are MORE restrictive than a similar Federal law, but a state can not preempt a federal law with a less restrictive law. This is why, in states that have passed medical marijuana laws, the Feds can, and do, still prosecute those who are following the state's medical usage laws.
Back to the EPA/CA thing, in 2007/2008, the EPA decided to revoke CA's special waiver, which previously allowed them to set their own standards. I won't bother getting into all the who/what/why here, but here a few links to get you started.:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SPL3IG1&show_article=1
http://www.matternetwork.com/2007/12/california-loses-greenhouse-gas-battle.cfm
http://www.law.uh.edu/eelpj/publications/4-1/JawTyng_RD.pdf

As for the inspection thing, you got lucky, or an extraordinarily stupid inspector. I mean, it's not that hard to tell the difference in the exhaust sound between a small-block Chevy, and a I6 Jeep motor. I'm also shocked that the Chevy V8 blew as clean as a 6 cylinder? In any case, assuming you went to the state run inspection, you're lucky they didn't open the hood. They don't always, but I have had them do it to me a few times. Always on the most mundane cars too. Specifically, I remember them checking a '98 Neon, which looked and was totally bone stock, as well as a plain-jane '98 Taurus (not even an SHO or anything). Yet, they never opened the hood on my '80 K20 (w/ a "built" small block with a "lumpy" idle), even though I literally "made the loop" around the parking lot 10 times in 1 day, to try to get it to pass emissions. It would always just barely fail, but for different things (one time CO, another unburnt HC). Finally, I went to a different station, on a cold wet day, and it just barely squeaked through. Now, it has QQ plates, so no more inspection.:D As for the Powerstroke into a Bronco. WOW?? Please tell me the inspector who missed that one. I have a bridge to sell him, only half-price.:rolleyes::D
 



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The inspectors opened the hood on both Cherokees, and clearly saw they were not stock, one inspector even asked whether it was a 350 or 454, don't now how he couldn't tell the difference but that's besides the point. The bronco did not get an under the hood look but when the inspector went to hook it up for emissions he said something about it being diesel. id like to add that both Cherokees failed, for emissions, not for having a non-stock motor. They both went to private shops, were given a slip saying they passed emissions, went back to the DMV and were given inspection stickers. The bronco barely passed emissions, and was given an inspection sticker no questions asked. and this was all before NJ only started checking emissions. Now that NJ only checks emissions it really shouldn't matter whether it is a stock engine. I'm not sure about North Jersey but down here it seems as if the DMV could care less so long as it passes emissions. The reason i make the point of it being up to the state was in places like NJ where they only check emissions, since thats all they check they technically cant fail you for having a non stock motor so long as it passes emissions. ill stop hijacking this thread now and get to what it should be about, i cant wait to see this finished to show a friend who im trying to talk into putting an explorer body on an early f150 frame and drivetrain(body is rusted to crap but frame is ok) its a different type of 4.9 swap but similar in a sense i guess.
 






Ha ha ha ha ha ha... I think somebody needs to make a "kickin' the dead horse" smiley icon... :) I'm not even going to jump in the middle of this red-herringed scarecrow on a slippery slope in a texas sauce pan "debate".

However, Nate, with regards to OBDI and OBDII playing nice... It can be done! At least, in a certain way. I had to put a new motor in my accord last years, so I scoured the forums for options and upgrades. A popular upgrade for my 6th gen accord ('99) is to swap an older 2.2l in for the newer 2.3l. However, the 2.2l for the swap was used in the early 90's so it was OBDI and my accord is, obviously, OBDII. But they got everything to work, including instrumentation. So, Nate, perhaps you can find some info over on 6thgenaccord.com ?

Just tryin' to help out a man who sounds just as crazy as I am.. :) I will DEFINITELY be following this post! Go for it and don't let anybody tell you it won't work.

EDIT: I didn't actually do the swap because it would have cost me more money and given me more of a headache than the blasted car already does. So I can't personally advise you on how to get the two systems to talk to each other. But quite a few members on those sites have done it, and have them inspected and registered and drive them everyday. So hopefully you can find something useful. You know the Honda commercials that say, "Everybody knows somebody who loves their Honda" ? Well, I'm the somebody that most certainly does NOT love their Honda. I looked at swapping the motor, but it was more involved than I was looking for. So I just rebuilt the one I had as it is my commuter.
 






Yes, man. I'm SOOOO sick of hearing about this emissions thing. Because some people *have* to be right... Holy hijack, Osama! I'm interested in this OBDI-II coercion... I'm guessing the OBDI controls the engine, but they wired it to play nice with the OBDII system?
 






No, using the thread *I* created as a platform for his righteousness (as he's modified HIS cats so that they no longer perform as required by the federal laws that he's recited over and over) is irking me. He can create a thread of his own about the evils of modifying your emissions systems. I'm just getting tired of hearing about it in here. The general consensus seems to be that the people wanna see me do this. I'm merely putting this thread up so that if somebody else does this in the future, they might be able to see what they're in for. I don't *have* to do this, I figured that this might be something that would offer some food for thought. This is pretty original and hasn't really been done too many times before. You've got guys putting their Ex bodies on truck frames, I'm putting one in an Explorer frame. *WITH* an emissions system, mind you. This is not about my emissions system though, this is about a 300I6/ZF-5/BW1356 into an Ex. And I'm working as fast as I can to get this project underway, because I know that's what people are looking here for.
 






If that was directed at me, at no time did you see me ask for advice during that build , in any way.

And, I no longer have said vehicle, which also by the way ran as clean as it ever did proven thru datalogging.

I guess some are too simpleminded to get it. :rolleyes:
 






No, it was directed at carguy. If you take a good look at this thread, and I quote carguy: "I saved the heat shields, and welded them over the straight pipe, carefully covering the holes in the shields. When they stick the mirror under the truck, it looks like it has cats. The computer tune takes care of the rear O2's"
 






If that was directed at me, at no time did you see me ask for advice during that build , in any way.

And, I no longer have said vehicle, which also by the way ran as clean as it ever did proven thru datalogging.

I guess some are too simpleminded to get it. :rolleyes:

No Jon he's tired of Mr high and mighty (as well as I) preaching how this and that is illegal but he himself is breaking the law with gutted cats replicated to look functional. He must be a politician because he talks out both sides if his ass.
 






No Jon he's tired of Mr high and mighty (as well as I) preaching how this and that is illegal but he himself is breaking the law with gutted cats replicated to look functional. He must be a politician because he talks out both sides if his ass.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I just about fell out my chair laughing.
 






http://www.6thgenaccord.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2523&highlight=OBDII+OBDI

It's for accords, but check it out anyways. There's some helpful stuff on OBDII to OBDI. Also, you can search for OBDII to OBDI or H22 swaps (H22 is the motor code) on their site. One of the guys just hacked up his harness and spliced in the correct plug ends and any necessary resistors to get the inputs/outputs to read correctly. I'm sure there are several differences in the swap - for example, the injectors for the accord motors are different (low impedance vs high impedance) and the OBDII equipment will burn up the OBDI injectors on the accords. So even though it may not apply directly to your swap, it just might get you started.

I've been wanting to drop a turbo-diesel in my exploder since the beginning of time (perhaps a 4bt, venuturi 2.8, or maybe even a 2.0tdi...) but the big-six makes monster torque and would yield similar results, methink. Me likeeee... :D
 






who cares about the in's and out's of the law right at this point in the build.

I wanna see it go!! I think that it would be a killer mud truck with the big six and some 2.5 ton rocks under it. and pushin some 44" Iroks! or some Pitbulls!

don't think that has been done yet to an exploder mud truck.
 






So, it's ok for people to break federal emmissions laws? Is that the consensus?


I don't care if you are sick and tired of hearing it--it is the law.
If you can get these laws changed, and come up with a better way to scrub dirty's from the emissions I will applaud you.


As far as the site is concerned carguy has about the most accurate information which should be posted on the subject thru public discussion. If you have "better" tips take it to private messages.

Thanks
Thank you for defending me, but I just want to make clear, as I have said numerous times in my posts, in this thread and other: I don't really care whether he is breaking the law or not. I was not telling him not to do it, or not to talk about it. In fact, I'm sure you're aware of my vehement disagreement w/ the sites policies regarding CAT discussion threads. I think we should be able to discuss nearly anything, at least as it relates to vehicle mods. There is certainly NOTHING illegal about DISCUSSION of illegal mods. Only the actual DOING part is illegal, at least here in America. It's interesting that "CAT" threads are summarily closed/deleted, even when they could result in some very interesting technical discussion/knowledge, yet this thread remains. As you seem to agree, based on the above quoted post, that they are basically the same thing, as far as being illegal, then why is that?

No, using the thread *I* created as a platform for his righteousness (as he's modified HIS cats so that they no longer perform as required by the federal laws that he's recited over and over) is irking me. He can create a thread of his own about the evils of modifying your emissions systems. I'm just getting tired of hearing about it in here. The general consensus seems to be that the people wanna see me do this. I'm merely putting this thread up so that if somebody else does this in the future, they might be able to see what they're in for. I don't *have* to do this, I figured that this might be something that would offer some food for thought. This is pretty original and hasn't really been done too many times before. You've got guys putting their Ex bodies on truck frames, I'm putting one in an Explorer frame. *WITH* an emissions system, mind you. This is not about my emissions system though, this is about a 300I6/M5OD/BW1356 into an Ex. And I'm working as fast as I can to get this project underway, because I know that's what people are looking here for.

No, it was directed at carguy. If you take a good look at this thread, and I quote carguy: "I saved the heat shields, and welded them over the straight pipe, carefully covering the holes in the shields. When they stick the mirror under the truck, it looks like it has cats. The computer tune takes care of the rear O2's"

No Jon he's tired of Mr high and mighty (as well as I) preaching how this and that is illegal but he himself is breaking the law with gutted cats replicated to look functional. He must be a politician because he talks out both sides if his ass.

Ok, again, and hopefully for the last time, I just want to clarify my position here. I've said this nearly every time I posted, but I'm guessing you guys just "gloss over" my posts, instead of actually reading them. Hmmm, maybe that's why you're not "getting it"?

I DON'T CARE if the OP, or anyone else, wants to do an illegal mod/motor swap. As others have pointed out, I myself have done some. I hate the government as much/more then any one. When does the revolution start? Sign me up! I'm not "talking out of both sides of my ass". At no time did I tell the OP not to do it, because it's illegal (which it is!). I did state that I thought it was a waste of time, in terms of the effort involved, for the end result. I still stand behind that, but he is free to do what he pleases. I would be interested in seeing it completed, just because, yes it would be different. I just wouldn't waste my time or effort on this particular project, nor would I advise a friend to do so. Motor swaps? Yes., Just not this motor, into this vehicle.

As far as the "law" thing, I got / am pissed because people are getting facts wrong. When I'm "dismissed" and told I'm wrong, when I know I am 100% RIGHT, as far the the facts are concerned, then I must, and I will defend that position. Again, as I have said, I'm just sick and tired of people in general NOT knowing facts and truth, and being so blissfully ignorant of there own lack of knowledge, and further being dismissive/derogatory towards those who do know the information. I have spent a considerable amount of time typing out these responses, locating and posting relevant links, for your benefit. I would bet that none of you bothered to even click on/read the links I have posted. If you had, you would have know I was right. Instead, it's easier to just say "go away". It's kinda like telling a child the lion will eat them if they get in the cage, while they stand there and earnestly argue and throw a temper tantrum insisting that it is perfectly fine to pet the kitty cat and why can't you, the dumb grownup, just understand that THEY are right. :rolleyes:

And no, that wasn't a personal attack, it was an analogy.
 






In fact, I'm sure you're aware of my vehement disagreement w/ the sites policies regarding CAT discussion threads. I think we should be able to discuss nearly anything, at least as it relates to vehicle mods.

Ok, again, and hopefully for the last time, I just want to clarify my position here. I've said this nearly every time I posted, but I'm guessing you guys just "gloss over" my posts, instead of actually reading them. Hmmm, maybe that's why you're not "getting it"?

carguy: Okay, I tire of this... While I know of no reason why you can't discuss removing CATs here, you can't. They set the rules. Like I was told with the emissions laws, you should do the same for the forum rules. Campaign for them to get changed. Just not in here.

I have, in fact, read your posts, and browsed over the links you posted (most of them, anyways), but it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China, other than somebody saying the price of tea is $3,000,000,000 a pound, and you getting the actual market price. I'm tired of seeing it, because this thread is not what this is about.

blenton: Thanks for the link! I will look it over. The unfortunate thing is, they had an adapter harness... And I don't think anybody out there has been as stupid as me to try this :crazy:

I would LOVE to put a 4bt in both the trucks I own, unfortunately the market rate on one of those with around 180k on them is oh, around $3,000...

lounge lizard: I'd be just crazy enough to do it... If 44's weren't $500 a pop (last time I checked). Ditto the rock axles. Going rate for a beat-up rusty turdwell is about $1000, and rebuilt is around $1500-2000. Oh, and they weigh 1200 lbs (hey, that's more than my Cummins :eek:)
 






All this legal mumbo jumbo is making me go crazy...i just want pictures! Lots and lots of pictures........
 






All this legal mumbo jumbo is making me go crazy...i just want pictures! Lots and lots of pictures........


Ah-men to that! Pictures! more pictures!
 






The unfortunate thing is, they had an adapter harness... And I don't think anybody out there has been as stupid as me to try this

I would LOVE to put a 4bt in both the trucks I own, unfortunately the market rate on one of those with around 180k on them is oh, around $3,000...

Oh yeah... dangit! I know there were a few guys that completed the swap without the harness - they just cut and spliced things. But I can't seem to find the right thread. Oh well...

Those 4bt's are ridiculously priced! I think it's actually cheaper to swap in a 6bt especially if you can find a complete donor (and assuming you've got room under the hood). And you can get a quieter common rail motor that's easier (but more expensive) to mod. I digress...

Anyways, back to all those pics you were promising to post for all of us... :)
 






Okay guys, I know I haven't posted in a month, but I've been trying to knock out some other projects ahead of time, so that my garage can be something like dedicated to this project (because once that steering column is out, it's gonna be a wee bit hard to move). Anywho, I got the hood off it, and I'm starting the prerequisites required to remove the engine, so stay posted, I'm gonna be out there a lot now that the weather has sunnied up quite a bit.
 






alright! another project picking up steam!
 






Sooo... Had a lot of fun out there today :rolleyes: My God, kudos to you guys that have worked on their trucks and seen how they're constructed and have kept them. Sweet Jesus doing jumping jacks, what a mess. Got the front driveshaft removed (check the pics on the carnage where the U-joint is on the front yoke), A/C evac'd, starter removed, and being that my impact gun rated for 625 ft lbs in reverse wouldn't even budge the manifold to down pipe bolts, I just unbolted the headers and will start hacking away at bolts once the engine is out of the way. I seriously can't believe that somebody signed off on the design of this thing. Added another thing to my bucket list: kick an Exploder engineer in the nuts.

IMG00291reszd.jpg


IMG00292reszd.jpg
 



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MOAR UPDATES!!!
Now that the weekend is over and I have time to get back out to the garage, I'm almost to the point of being able to get it out. I've got almost everything disconnected, TC bolts off, and 3 out of (I think) 6 tranny bolts taken out. Gonna remove the rear driveshaft, and take out the trans support tomorrow, hopefully giving me access to the remaining 3 bolts. My God, I cannot wait to get this friggin SOHC OUT!!! :mad: I'm fuming over this thing being so difficult to get access to stuff. I'm especially going to be pissed if I have to start modding my wrenches to get to these tranny bolts. All I think about is "What if one engineer raised their hand and said 'But sir, what if somebody has to work on this thing in the future?'"

A couple pics of the destruction below. I got all po'd about not being able to loosen the fan clutch nut (as I don't have a Ford fan clutch wrench) so I decided to break out the sawzall on the fins and the shroud. I really, REALLY hate proprietary tools.

IMG00293reszd.jpg


IMG00294reszd.jpg
 






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