My under hood "bug"

[Turdle]

Well
FMS says an x cam should pull 13+ inches of vacuum.
I am idling at 16-17 ( I have a cab mounted guage)

Funny thing. This runs like a beast. I can do 60 from one end of the bridge to the other ( about 2 blocks give or take). Crusing around town does just fine, sounds like nothing else on the road.

On the highway I baby it, drive 70 mph, no revving over 3000 to pass, and have a best of 24 MPG, however it usually is about 21-22 hwy.
These reasons are why I feel a PCM and fuel injection is the way to go.

The surging ONLY occurs when slowing from highway speed.


The rev limiter sux balls, just getting into power when it hits,

dammmit
I need a flasher---If I spring, what should I do.
I am considering dumping the pro-m stuff and using a stock maf to tune from??? ( sensor only in a larger housing)

Thoughts????

I know there is something awry---this may help-- for some unknown reason, out of the blue, the torque converter quits locking up. It usually happens after a binge of surging. I scan for codes---none. try re arming pcm-- still no lockup. It is only when I disconnnect battery to reset the pcm that will get it locking again.
Out of about 7 long trips we have driven this setup, I have had to reset for this reason 3 times, half way there. Tach at 70 mph will read 2200 when locked--2750 or so when unlocked

anybody experience this??? I know it is the surging problem that causes it, I am assuming the trans is going into protect mode from the repeated lock- unlock while it is vroooming

 

[CDW6212R]

Hello Jon, I've forgotten if you have a distributor or not? I'd want to see a nice match between an OBDII PCM, a Ford MAF, and better injectors.

You can make a ton more HP with the 42 l/hr injectors. I love the compression, that's entirely where yout great power and fuel mileage is coming from. I'll be aiming for those with my Kenne Bell engine, but NA you shouldn't need much more than a 30 l/hr injector. If you aren't planning for lots more power, why not match those parts better, and get a real dyno PCM tune? Regards,

 

[JDraper]

Hmmm, first thing that popped into my mind was also an IAC restrictor plate. Many of us with Mach 1's have these installed because hanging/surging rpms is a very common problem on the Mach motors. When you let off the throttle, the rpm's either hang, surge slightly, or drop veeerrryy slowly. You can mess with the rpm drop rate by the size of the hole in the restrictor plate. For the Mach 1 motors (4.6l DOHC), a hole between 5/32 and 9/32 seems to be ideal.

 

[Turdle]

The IAC adjusting plate was the first thing that popped into my head when I read this but,

JT you did set the TPS votage (.89v)??

What CC's are the cylinder heads?


Jeff - :navajo:

Actually, I was shooting for pro-m's recommended <1v and achieved .95v

I am going to try the adjuster plate
40 bux why not?

Hello Jon, I've forgotten if you have a distributor or not?

Don, who you trying to fool?
You know it is DIS

 

[SVO]

Jon,

Jamie is right, there are waaaay to many cubes here for the stock PCM to be able to handle even with the MAF molester, you really need to yank the front driveshaft out and go have it dyno'ed, with a wide band O2 so you can get some A/F readings.

If you don't have a capable tuner availible there where you live may I suggest two off the top of my head:

Doug904 from here on the site, although his primary line is 4.0 performance

And:

Lido at http://www.alternativeauto.com/tuning/tuning_philosophy.html

Lido was one of the other guys to be the first to put an 03' Cobra motor in a Fox body :


Of course there both not near where you live, but with shipping/emailing them pulls with the A/F readings they can both get you in the ball park for drivability, remember the best way is to have a tunner right there while you getting your pulls but sometimes that's just not possible.
Make sure you explain to them that you will need to be able to reburn the programs as you get the info and and so forth.

You can also have them change up/down shift points, line pressure for shift firmness, Rev limiter, lock-up converter, ETC, they'll expain to you.

You can also contact Randy @ Dallas Mustang Parts too for Dyno/tuning sessions with Mike Wilson, Mike is good with the mod motors but there is another guy there that pretty good with the 5.0 stuff.

If it was my phone call, Lido would be the man.

Also if you really think/need the IAC adjuster plate I just happen to have one in my back pocket I'll have Lori drop it in the mail to you and send it


Jeff - :navajo:

 

[SVO]

Also on another note an adjustable FPR from Kirban (cause there rebuildable) an a new in tank pump 190lph or greater are also recomended, both can be gotten from www.50resto.com.

And you need to find someone with a Genesis or the equivilant scan tool and check injector duty cycle, at different throttle settings, this will greatly enhance you abillity to pick which injectors you will need to install with your set-up.

Just saying you need 30's or 42's is easy but being able to actually determin the correct injector size you need will make the PCM happier in being able to properly control the duty cycle with out having to over work, or under work.

The OBDII PCM is a powerful device, but it still has pre-programmed parameters that is can only work in, stepping out of the boundries will cause it to do funky stuff such as your finding out.

A proper tune will be the icing on the cake ofr your set-up, and done right you can see upwards of 25+ hp and drivability that would impress your mom when she takes you modded Ex to the local grocery store for TV dinners.

It will also help in greatly reducing emissions and dangerious internal build-up in the engine, which could damage or clog up things including your cats.

I would do the burns for you, but I haven't stepped up to the plate yet on which software I want to program with, I have a good idea, but product support is a major key factor here, and both have there ups and downs.
That's alot of bank to be kicking out for being left in the dark.



Jeff - :navajo:

 

[Turdle]

Man I love you guys!!!
It isn''t fixed yet, however I know we will lick it.

There is an AWD dyno in Lee's Summit Mo, At a business named Diemans motorsports.
As soon as I can make the trip, I'll give them thier 100bux per hr and get some numbers.
In the meantime, yes Jeff I would like to try the adjuster plate.

I did get a stock maf from Jamie.
Recommend a good tube to install it in?

The maf tuner software has "meter to use" and "meter to match" functions,which you burn into the eprom in maf tuner box. The box has to be in the car, installed in line with maf harness.

However C&L tubes use the stock sensor, with appropriate sampling tube, yes?
This way I could diitch all the pro-m from crud my ride?

At this point, I think I would be better off downsizing the injectors also
Long story short, my supercharger was stolen from garage, doesn't look like a new kit is in the near future.

(BTW Homeowners insurance doesn't cover car parts in garage not bolted to car. If kit was in house, it would be considered merchandise, and covered ---bit of fyi)



anyone want to trade a set of 30's for this set of matched 42's?

 

[410Fortune]

so okay I picked up a Scantool USB interface last year, I bought it off a member of this site who sold his Ex.
This is the USB interface for my OBD-II port to laptop, with the software it allows me to record real time 02 sensor readings, air fuel, etc....
it is my understanding that I could record what my PCM is doing, then send it out to a programmer and this would greatly help them write a custom program for my engine.

Can JT use this device, since a local dyno tune may not be an option?
I have never hooked it up myself, I plan to but I have just not done it yet. JT you want to borrow this sucker?
You will have to download the latest software from Scantool.net (I think thats the site) but I can mail it to you.

 

[Turdle]

so okay I picked up a Scantool USB interface last year, I bought it off a member of this site who sold his Ex.
This is the USB interface for my OBD-II port to laptop, with the software it allows me to record real time 02 sensor readings, air fuel, etc....
it is my understanding that I could record what my PCM is doing, then send it out to a programmer and this would greatly help them write a custom program for my engine.

Can JT use this device, since a local dyno tune may not be an option?
I have never hooked it up myself, I plan to but I have just not done it yet. JT you want to borrow this sucker?
You will have to download the latest software from Scantool.net (I think thats the site) but I can mail it to you.

You know I love to tinker!!

Helljess I would love to borrow that sucker!!

This might help get it dialed in real close, enough for 1 dyno session to get it perfect, instead of several visits.

I feel warm and fuzzy now

system requirements?????

 

[Turdle]

Here is a video showing my Air fuel ratio-vacuum etc at idle, and whilst giving it a few blips.
Notice the "slow to fall" idle after revving.

Could it be part of the problem?
Jamie, does yours do this?

http://media.putfile.com/hostingpit-video

I also got to thinking about the TPS idle voltage, opened the mounting hole a bit more, now it is right on .89v.

We are driving this to the city tonite, I don't expect it to be fixed though.

 

[410Fortune]

No mine does not do any of that stuff hahaha
My old 4.0L did that to me sometimes, when it was cold, with lots of bolt on mods and no computer tune.

I would say, from that video, that is definatley a computer controlled issue, meaning the PCM is holding it at 2000 RPM then allowing it to drop slowly. Normally the computer would hold it closer to 1200 then slowly drop to a idle of 6-800, but 2000 is a bit high?
I dont see that as a mechanical issue with a torque converter or because of your mods? unless the torque converter you have is messing with the transmission solenoids? This is uncharted water for me....


I have the solution for you though, lets trade trucks!

That 347 is just badass

 

[dreamr]

I did get a stock maf from Jamie.
Recommend a good tube to install it in?

The maf tuner software has "meter to use" and "meter to match" functions,which you burn into the eprom in maf tuner box. The box has to be in the car, installed in line with maf harness.

However C&L tubes use the stock sensor, with appropriate sampling tube, yes?
This way I could diitch all the pro-m from crud my ride?

It sounds like folks are getting you taken care of so I'll stay out of that part of this. But I wanted to answer this question as it had not been answered yet.

I went with the C&L 76 mm for the mustang simply because if it's ease of upgrading. It uses the stock ford sensor elements which according to Doug of Bamachips are a whole lot easier to tune with vs pro-m.

Furthermore it does have a sample tube to calibrate for different injectors. The sample tube is retained by two allen bolts and takes a few seconds to swap. Furthermore the sample tubes runs between 25 and 30 dollars which makes it cheap and easy to upgrade injectors to meet future stages of a build up. Somewhere on the last page of my "city car registry" it shows the pieces if you wanna take a peek.

 

[Turdle]

ok
I have something to report.

My wife was in a seminar, and since I ran out of gambling money, I sat in my truck and played with my MAF Tuner software.

I will try to explain this to the best of my terminology.

The maf tuner box connects in line with the reference line from maf, giving the ability to tweak it ( rape is a better term)

There is also software, which allows the manipulation of the airflow signal. It breaks it down into several hundred boxes, which can be edited alone, or in groups. There is an eprom in the box, into which this new fuel map is burned.

Also, there are starting points built into the software, using a meter(maf) to use-meter(maf) to match function.

For fine tuning, there are 4 knobs on the front of the box, dividing the map into 4 bands. The amount of adjusment for each knob can also be burned into the eprom.

I was looking at the current map chart, with the knobs in their optimal positions ( according to air fuel meter) and noticed, because of the ratio of change on knob 2, there was a dip in the curve. I went into the software and removed the dip by editing just that group of coresponding values in the curve.

Voila!!! On return trip home, no more surging!!!
It does stll have the hanging idle ( yes I want to try the adjuster plate), however, it decelerates normally now, and the transmission is shifting just terrific.

I am planning on adjusting my fuel pressure, as recommended by SVO.
I am also still wanting to gather the data, however I am going to junk this pro-m crap, and get a real tuner- with the C&L maf sensor setup.
( I am also not completey thrilled with the bolt on air filter--hard to get)

OK
The Maf stuff on my truck is crap, however, I must say I have a good understanding now of the funtions inside the PCM, and the value of a good tuner.

 

[BrianB31]

dreamr, I had a driveabilty issue and tried that IAC spacer. Turns out my issue was the cam and the PCM fighting. However when I try that thing it didn't do much. jt, if you want it I'll send it to you, it's just taking up space in my toolbox. I still need a picture of your balancer. CHP won't return my emails.

HMM I too am betting on SVO solving this issue.

However here's a thought. I have seen this issue pop up on various Mustang boards. Seemingly most common with the 331 and 347 strokers. Many have been able to solve their idle woes (including what you describe) with a bit of tuning and this little bugger from Ford Racing. Obviously you want to rule out any other mechanical concerns first, but this may help.

http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/iwwida.pvx?;item?item_no=LRS-9939A 1&comp=LRS

 

[BrianB31]

"In the Ford Racing catalog, right next to the E and X cam it says:
*will not work with explorer 5.0L."

You want to know why they say that. I'm a engineer at Ford and used the E cam in my Explorer engine for my '98 Ranger, because based on the catalog it was what I wanted. Well the first time I fired it up it ran like crap. Surging idle, poor accelaeration etc. I traced part of the problem to the fuel pressure regulator in the Ranger's tank. Ranger's run stock at 60 psi and Explorer's run at 45. After changing the regulator it ran better but still was off.

From help of friends I got a meeting with the people from Ford Racing. When I took my truck over there, explained my problems and what parts I was using they asked me to pop the hood. As soon as I did they saw the Explorer motor and asked if it was an Explorer PCM. I said yes and they said the Alphabet cams will not work with the Explorer PCM due to the LCA. The Explorer needed a min of 115 degrees of seperation and the E had 112. I was a little upset since the catalog didn't say anything about this. They offered to hekp me do a custom tume, but I said that wouldn't help the others who bought the cams for their trucks. I asked them to put that disclaimer in the next catalog, which they have done for the past few years.

I went with a custom cam from Buddy Rawls and sold the E-Cam to offset the cost. Buddy was great and the truck was a new anmial after I did the cam swap and I've loved the cam ever since. When I go to the 347 I plan to get a new cam from him.

jt, upon reading the issues I think your PCM is fighting your cam as well. You can do like others said and get a custom dyno tune, or swap the cam out. I can send you my number in a pm and let you lsiten to my truck since I don't have a digital video recorder.

X cam = stock PCM = ???????
I think you need to get a dyno session and tune with somebody who really knows stang pushrod small blocks.

I have a low vacuum situation with my setup, I have sealed up the block tight (dipstick, all vacuum connections, PCV, intake spacer and gaskets, etc.

In the Ford Racing catalog, right next to the E and X cam it says:
*will not work with explorer 5.0L"

Why do you think this is?
My guess is the PCM is freaked out by your setup OR low manifold vacuum, too low for allt he vacuum controlled explorer emissions and truck junk.
Do you have a chip right now?

I noticed that with my E cam and roller valvetrain it likes a low idle, like 5-700 and if I turn the AC on it can die. I also found that when I turn on the blend door (when you put the HVAC controls into any mode and it sucks some vacuum, to move the blend door or whatever) the idle drops even more and it can die, not often but it does happen. it will cause a surging as well, like if I am at idle in slow traffic not pressing the gas, it will surge to move forward, turn the heater to off and it smooths out.
(so a vacuum load on my 5.0L = worse)
I figure its a combo of:
stock torque converter
intake spacer
headers
E cam
lack of 02 in Colorado causing a low maifold vacuum

OR:
stock PCM program with modded engine, in your truck 10 fold


I thought about looking into ways to keep the manifold vacuum higher, dont they make a vacuum controller for race engines? but then I have not even tested my manifold vacuum yet.
I would like to know what a stock 5.0L psi would be at diuring idle then see yours (and mine)
A vacuum test is also a good idea I think to detect any leaks, the factory setup does ot exactly seal up well, especially the PCV valve

Thoughts?

 

[Turdle]

dreamr, I had a driveabilty issue and tried that IAC spacer. Turns out my issue was the cam and the PCM fighting. However when I try that thing it didn't do much. jt, if you want it I'll send it to you, it's just taking up space in my toolbox. I still need a picture of your balancer. CHP won't return my emails.

Wow
I certainly appreciate all the kindness I am recieving. I believe I have a adjuster plate on the way.

As for the balancer--well you will have a better view if you look at yours,
I will get a pic of mine right now, but I promise, it looks exactly like a stock unit, just different balance weight.

Pm me your e-mail address please, so I can send it.

 

[Turdle]

"In the Ford Racing catalog, right next to the E and X cam it says:
*will not work with explorer 5.0L."

You want to know why they say that. I'm a engineer at Ford and used the E cam in my Explorer engine for my '98 Ranger, because based on the catalog it was what I wanted. Well the first time I fired it up it ran like crap. Surging idle, poor accelaeration etc. I traced part of the problem to the fuel pressure regulator in the Ranger's tank. Ranger's run stock at 60 psi and Explorer's run at 45. After changing the regulator it ran better but still was off.

From help of friends I got a meeting with the people from Ford Racing. When I took my truck over there, explained my problems and what parts I was using they asked me to pop the hood. As soon as I did they saw the Explorer motor and asked if it was an Explorer PCM. I said yes and they said the Alphabet cams will not work with the Explorer PCM due to the LCA. The Explorer needed a min of 115 degrees of seperation and the E had 112. I was a little upset since the catalog didn't say anything about this. They offered to hekp me do a custom tume, but I said that wouldn't help the others who bought the cams for their trucks. I asked them to put that disclaimer in the next catalog, which they have done for the past few years.

I went with a custom cam from Buddy Rawls and sold the E-Cam to offset the cost. Buddy was great and the truck was a new anmial after I did the cam swap and I've loved the cam ever since. When I go to the 347 I plan to get a new cam from him.

jt, upon reading the issues I think your PCM is fighting your cam as well. You can do like others said and get a custom dyno tune, or swap the cam out. I can send you my number in a pm and let you lsiten to my truck since I don't have a digital video recorder.

Well thank you much for the answer. That pretty much sums it up I guess. I am planning on the custom tune route anyway.

I purchased and installed this cam in 2003, the catalogue said nothing about explorer engines at that time.

It isn't that radical of a camshaft though, I am sure a tune can be written, if there isn't a good one already.

 

[BrianB31]

Yes the disclaimer is in the 2004 and up catalogs. It's also noted on their website. Just fyi the people who answer the phone are the same people who run Total Performance. They're in the same building. I'm using one of their clutch slave kits but I ran into issues of the '95 and up Rangers using a smaller clutch master cylinder.

I didn't race it this year because the stock Mustang clutch couldn't hang on to the motor when I was sending a 75 shot of Nitrous through it. I'm saving up and do everything this winter.

 

[Turdle]

So
Lobe seperation 107 degrees, and this is affecting the PCM how?
I'm learning here, be gentle.

 

[410Fortune]

JT you still want Scantool stuff?

I want a tune, i KNOW my 5.0L is not putting the power down to its full potential right now, but its also far better then stock!

I see my options as:
record my data, send data to a tuner and have a chip burned or program for a Supertuner thingy right?

Or full dyno session with a tuner on hand? I dont know who to trust for this, but I am sure there are reputrable Mustang guys here in CO. I dont think I would go this route until after I re-gear and finish my 4x4 conversion.