Turbo on 2000 Limited 5.0

[CDW6212R]

Well done again, and drive it easy for a while. It's so much easier to work on one that's all whole and you know how reliable 99% of the parts are. A project car you buy in pieces is the worst starting point, and a new combination is also harder to deal with than a running car with one change at a time.

Enjoy being able to drive it again, work on other things, like the stereo, brakes, gauges, or fixing some other things.

 

[4pointslow]

Explorer

Great job guys, that was fast. Teamwork at it's best.

 

[Dono]

Thanks CDW6212R, and 4pointslow.

Day 1 was a complete success. I ran thru a few heat cycles shopping today. Coolant tank looks great. No bubbling or artificially inflated level. Max boost is turned down, and in the next few days will actually roll into it, and my target max boost is about 4 lbs for the winter.

My plan is to wire in a J&S Vampire knock controller before upping boost. The knock controller is cheap insurance when you look at the cost of gaskets and some fluids (I know this for a fact after looking at the gasket receipts over the last few weeks).

My first choice would be to hang on to my iron heads as the cost of the aluminum heads would also include the cost of rockers, and push rods. 4pointslow has proved that if you can stay out of detonation, you can do amazing things with a motor. I'd think the rules still apply somewhat to an old iron headed push rod motor.

 

[Dono]

Well guys, the motor has finally beat me. I give up.

I took a few small passes on the highway the other day, slowly inching the boost up to 5 lbs, hit my target and quit. No detonation, but im pushing gasses in to the coolant system again.

Tim's motor is going in. I don't have the energy to push this, but will start wrenching today a bit.

I'll confirm which cylinder is the issue (probably #7 again, as the heads were put back on the same banks) before pulling the coolant system off.

The only real fix is aluminum heads. I just don't have it in me to keep trying different things and pulling the motor each time. At least I'll have a few months to order heads, make sure the springs will work, measure for push rod length, order push rods........ sigh.

 

[4pointslow]

Heads

Sorry to hear you are having problems again.
I am wondering what is the root cause? If it is number 7 again is the head cracked or warped? Or is something else causing it to blow the gasket there, like boost.(but you think the engine should be able to handle that).

I always thought cast iron heads held up better than aluminum. The older engines with aluminum heads used to blow gaskets at 50,000 miles while the cast iron headed engines seemed to last forever. Then the multilayer gaskets came out and it seems the gasket blowing problem went away for the aluminum headed engines.

Did you have any codes or other symptoms? Did it only start pushing combustion gases after you crept the boost up to 5 psi?

 

[Dono]

I'm sure the coolant tank looked great before starting to up the boost.

I don't want to suggest that gt40p iron heads can't handle 5psi boost, as they can. There is something else going on. I've read over and over how the aftermarket aluminum heads have a much thicker deck and are far less prone to lifting and warping. That's why I am coming to the conclusion this is my best course of action.

The heads were holding boost, and surviving slight detonation from time to time with no issue before my track incident. The machine shop checked the heads to make sure they were true and pressure tested them for leakage. Everything checked out.

The second time Tim and I checked the offending head with a straight edge and it still seemed ok. There is a bit of a wave felt on the head surface around #7 . Im guessing that is the issue, but also know that wave would have been there when the heads were resurfaced the very first time the motor wen't together. Why were the heads holding boost then? Following that logic, I can't help but think something else is going on.

Do I take the heads back to the machine shop and keep throwing money (and possibly yet another engine pull) or go with aluminum heads. My vote right now is aluminum.

 

[jd4242]

Maybe its the block thats not flat..hate for you to buy heads and it do the same

 

[CDW6212R]

Maybe its the block thats not flat..hate for you to buy heads and it do the same

I'm sorry to hear that it's sick again.

Yeah, after three times my guess would be that something is not flat in that area.

 

[Dono]

It could be block, but that's definitely far less likely than the heads.

 

[CDW6212R]

It could be block, but that's definitely far less likely than the heads.

Yes I agree, Woody does really good work. I just said it as a generic obvious concern, it sounds like the head gaskets not being able to seal. The cast iron of the heads isn't the problem, but of course any head that flows a lot more would be good. You've had a rough time with that engine so far, and I'm not in a position to judge what's best given our second hand knowledge of the parts/budget, or feel for what's going on.

Take your time and figure out what the best answer is.

 

[Dono]

Being cheap about the head thing hasn't worked out so good for me. I really thought these heads would be fine for my modest build.

 

[4pointslow]

Holding pressure

The engine held the cylinder pressure even with more boost until the day you went racing. Now it wont even hold 5psi of boost. That makes me think the block, head or both got warped when the gasket blew the first time.

If it is just the head then new aluminum heads will fix the problem. If it is the block then the gaskets will blow out on the aluminum heads and they may not be able to take that abuse. Aluminum is more prone to cracking and warping than cast iron. Ford went as far as coming up with a fail safe strategy on newer vehicles with aluminum heads to try to save them in the event of overheating. The failsafe strategy for overheating causes injectors to randomly shut off to use the cylinders as air pumps to cool the engine from the inside. I don't know exactly what year they started that but it was due to the aluminum heads that have become the norm on modern engines.

When checking for straightness the straight edge has to be perfect, no rust dents etc. On newer heads and blocks the specification is .001, I don't know if it is the same on the older engines.
You are supposed to place the .001 feeler gauge on the block/head and then place the straight edge on top, then try moving the feeler gauge. if it is loose the head or block is warped.

 

[jd4242]

The original gasket that blew,did it show signs where it blew?? More particular the top or bottom of the gasket??

 

[Dono]

post 695 on page 35 shows the front and back of the gasket where it blew on #7 cylinder.
I'd agree, the only thing that makes sense is some warpage that has been missed.

 

[jd4242]

post 695 on page 35 shows the front and back of the gasket where it blew on #7 cylinder.
I'd agree, the only thing that makes sense is some warpage that has been missed.

Sorry missed that..if im looking correctly it appears to be on block side??:shifty_ey when you do pull the heads again see if you can tell again..when mine blew from boost it blew on head side,i thought they looked fine but took them to my buddies shop and he said they definitely were slightly warped. He milled them again for me and haven't had a issue ..

So million dollar question. ...you gonna run boost on Tim's motor once its swapped in???lol

 

[Dono]

So million dollar question. ...you gonna run boost on Tim's motor once its swapped in???lol

Tim says "go for it!"
His motor held up just fine for him under 8-9 lbs boost.
I am going to keep the turbo on, so even with the boost controller backed right off I sit at about 3 lbs boost. We are going to keep Tims motor intact as possible, and even use the intake that's on it as long as we can make an egr tube fit.
Not much happened today. Late night last night (Heavy drinkers don't seem to want to leave easily when the lights are on, and reasoning with them is impossible). Spent today doing yard work, then I tried finding the compression stroke on #7 myself and have left it due to frustration. I'll get a family member to come out and help me when they can.

I'd like to say this whole motor thing isn't bothering me, but its definitely leaving me in a foul mood.

a set of these:
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tfs-51410010-m58/overview/ (I still need to confirm the spring rates are ok, but if not I'm sure the springs I already have should work)
these:
http://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/tfs-51400419/overview/
some rockers and pushrods and I'm good to go.

 

[CDW6212R]

If you have to buy new heads, check with the better engine builders who also supply heads. They usually provide better components at similar pricing, plus the springs will be a better match for the cam. If the cam isn't ideal and will be changed again later, than the springs aren't as critical(unless you knew what cam would be run later). The springs I had installed in my Flotek heads(copy of GT40X), were chosen by Ed Curtis who will make my cam. The cam kits are very not cheap for those custom cams, about $270 I think it was. These springs are smaller diameter and had to have new retainers and keepers to go with, plus the kits always include new seals.

So plan the valve springs carefully in advance, it's expensive to decide later to change them. The better head sources will charge nothing for most alternate springs, unless they are some wild or uncommon parts.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

So million dollar question. ...you gonna run boost on Tim's motor once its swapped in???lol

i have been egging him on! DO IT! i told him if it blows, it blows, but then we have to pull it and fix it. i keep forgetting this is his DD.
on his heads, with gloves on (a old bodymans trick. ever want to feel something you cant see use a cloth between your hand and the panel. in this case i used a latex glove) i could feel a small indent on #7 . it almost felt like a mistake in machining, but i cant say. we did lay a strait edge on the heads, but didint think to do the block.

BTW don, on the old build sheet, my blocks deck height is 8.190, the push rod length is 6.700-6.750. the diameter is 5/16. the wall thickness is .0.80 and if it makes a difference it has comp cams 851-16 (if i remember right the 16 just means there's 16 of them) lifters.

 

[Dono]

I was reading the push rods are .5 longer on the TW average guy stuff. Your push rod length is perfectly consistent with that. Even with my custom cam, my push rod length is factory and the witness marks are perfectly centered.

In spring we can turn up the boost on Tim's motor and have some fun. If we hurt it, I'll make sure I return the motor with a set of head gaskets and an intake gasket.

 

[jd4242]

In spring we can turn up the boost on Tim's motor and have some fun. If we hurt it, I'll make sure I return the motor with a set of head gaskets and an intake gasket.

Haha you guys are crazy!! I love it