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Another 5.0L Miss Thread

Cali' Explorer

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Hey guys, I did take a second look at something today... my valve covers.

It appears that the only place where there are baffles are on the Passenger Side, right where the oil filler comes in. It has a small box built right under the Oil Filler and that's it.

Is this what your guys' valve covers looked like? Just curious.
 



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It was long ago, but I believe mine had a baffle in both

I had an idea
Install the covers loosly, leave the bolt about 1/8 " out all the way around, pull the fuel pump relay , disconnect coilpacks and have someone crank the engine while you hold down on the covers. If there is an issue, you'd surely feel it. You might also get some clay, press it onto inside of vover and crank engine 5 seconds or so and look at the witness marks. This will let you sleep.
edit
I think it is the valve side with the issue, so oil pressure isn't a factor here.
You might try a dab of clay on each rocker at valve end, install covers loosly and crank engine. If they don't jump, tighten them and crank again, then remove and see how far the clay smashed down. I'd want .10 clearance
 






410Fortune

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Sure that works great if you have a starter, battery, and ignition when you do the covers! lucky....
 












Cali' Explorer

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JTSmith, I think the bigger issue is that I don't have the whole engine with me right now. I live in an apartment so can't do this work here. My X is 2 hours away at my Fiances Parents House right now. I want to try and resolve any issues now if possible.

So, for the quick test, my plan is to bolt down the Roller Rockers without pushrods and hold up the pushrod side so they are against the valves, but the valves are fully closed (this should be the Max height the Roller Rocker ends will ever be at. I will then put a bubble of white lithium on the top of the Roller Rockers and then loosely set the Valve Covers in place gaskets. I will then remove the valve covers and check for any white spots on the Valve Covers. If there are any, I know where I need to trim. If not, I will then try settin the valve covers on with no gasket and check for marking.

My idea is that, if there is no marks with the valve cover gasket, I should pretty much be ok. If there are marks, I will probably have some serious issues. Then, without the gasket, that should give me a range of how close I am (and even better, if there are still no marks without a gasket, I know I'm totally home free.


BTW, just removed the masking tape from the top end of the Cylinder Heads and sides after painting. It looks purdy. My whole engine compartment should be Black, White and Aluminum only, very nice and simple IMHO.

I am also contemplating cutting off the stock Spark Plug Standoff Mounts on the Valve Covers. I bought new Valve Cover Bolt Mounted Stand offs for all the Spark Plug Wires, so I don't think I need the old brackets anymore. This way I can remove what I don't need which should make maneuvering the Valve Covers on the Assembled Engine much easier.
 






Cali' Explorer

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Well, looks like I have some good news. My Jegs order arrived today, so I immediately set to work on testing whether I will have interference or not.

I installed 4 rockers on each cylinder head for the initial test (the full test will happen this weekend when I actually have the engine with me). I installed them at the extremeties of the Valve Covers as this appears to be where most people have the most problems. I loosely installed the Rockers with the bolts about 1/2 way through the heads. I then smeared some assembly lube on the highest tip of each Rocker. I laid it in a bead so that , if it hit the valve cover it would either stick to the valve cover, or smoosh down the grease, or at least give some indication of how close the fit is.

I ran the first test with no Valve Cover gasket, just to see how close things were. With no gasket, the valve covers never physically touched the rockers. There was only 2 cases where things got really close. In both cases, it was with the Baffle. Basically, I tired each Valve Cover on both Cylinder Heads, knowing that each might be slightly different. On one Valve Cover, I got a small smearing of lithium, but so little that it looked like it had just touched the very tip of the grease, which means there's about 1/16"+ of clearance. On the other Cylinder head, this was significantly closer. It looked to be almost touching based on the size and spread pattern of the lube, but it did not actually touch. Other than that, the only other issue I had was that they got a little close on the second cylinder head with the other valve cover gaskets. Again, looks to be about 1/16" or so. They cleared everywhere else.

Since this was with no gasket at all, I'm not too concerned about them fitting now.


I actually do have one other question though, how will I know if I needto use a shim on a given Roller Rocker? I assume that you need a shim if you can not achieve zero lash before bottoming out the bolt? Just want to make sure I get things right the first time.
 






Cali' Explorer

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Hey all... very annoyed updated. Read On.

Went down to the Bay Area to do the engine rebuild this weekend. Spent 2 days working this weeked. Total time put in was about 8-10 hours. A lot of this was spent checking and rechecking torques, and fighting with 2 stupid bolts (about 3 1/2 hours of time wasted).


Day 1:
Day 1 went ok. I ran into some issues getting the engine to TDC because I was totally by myself which meant turn the crank, jump up and check... turn the crank, jump up and check... blah blah blah. Anywho I got the CMP in all by myself, but what should have taken like 10 - 15 minutes took almost an hour.

Next I went to install the Cylinder Heads. I took extra care here to make ABSOLUTELY sure that there was no oil or anything left over and to ensure proper sealing. I then installed the Cylinder Head Gaskets. My friend suggested only one thing different then some others, he said to put a very very thin coat of RTV on the small arms of the cylinder head gasket that stick up near where the upper intake seals. Next was the Cylinder Heads. *SHEESH* these guys are heavy. I mean, they were pretty easy to get out, but getting them back in with touching the bottom face , setting them on the gaskets and without scratching them was a lot of work. I then went ahead and torqued all the Cylinder Head bolts down to 65 ft-lbs. (Basd on ARP's spec). I did this in 3 stages, the first to 45 ft-lbs, the second to 60 ft-lbs and the third to 65 ft-lbs.

Once that was done, I went to lunch, haha.

After lunch, I checked all the Head Bolts one more time to ensure proper torque. They were all good so I went on to installing the Roller Rockers. This went fairly well, the only issue I ran into was that I needed to install the thick shims (.060"). I could have gone with the thin shims (.030") except that I hit torque on them dead even at 1 turn. Because it was so tight, I opted to go with the thick shim just in case. I got them all torque down nice and tight and things seemed good. At this point it was getting dark (I had to take a 4 hour break to cool off from the 95 degree heat). I tried check the valve cover clearance but couldn't tell well enough. Decided to call it a night.


Day 2:
Day 2 went ok, except for one major issue (you'll tell me you told me so, haha). I started off first thing with installing all the accessory brackets onto the cylinder heads. This went pretty good overall.

I then went onto installing the lower intake. I started by spraying engine clean on the lower intake to get any remaining grime off. I had already scraped and removed all the gaskets, but there was still some gunk in the runners, so I cleaned them out. I had already pulled the injectors out, so this was a very quick process. I then installed the Intake to Cylinder Head gaskets. I added a thin smathering of RTV around the water jackets both for extra leak protection as well as to hold the gaskets in place during installation. I lowered the intake into place and used 4 bolts at the corners to help me find center. Once it was all down I just went around and torqued the intake down. I did this in 2 stages according to Ford's spec (one step at about 7 ft-lbs. and the second at 24 ft-lbs.). At each step, I followed the order laid out by Ford and kept going around over and over again until they all stayed at the set torque. For stage 1 it took 3 rounds to get them all to stay, for the second round it took either 4 or 5.

I then went ahead and installed the Fuel Injectors using a small amount of oil on the seals to seat them again. At this point someone had finally woken up in the house. I took this time to install the fuel lines.

At this point, I installed the battery and turned the X to the "On" position for the first time in about 5 or 6 weeks. X turned on fine and the engine cranked over very nicely. The engine cranks really easily when there are no spark plugs install and no fuel going (I didn't connect up the Fuel Injector Connectors yet to keep fuel out of the engine).

I loosely installed the valve covers again and had my fiance crank the engine. Much to my dismay, the Drivers Side Covers were moving a whole lot. The passenger side were moving as well, but just barely. I pulled the covers again to check and noticed that 2 of the Rockers had been installed slightly cockeyed, so I re-adjusted those 2 which gave me a little more clearance, but still not enough. It appears that the 2 spots that the rockers are hitting are on Cylinder 5, the valve closest to the front of the engine appears to be hitting both on the side against the valve cover as well as on the Rocker Valve Side Tip. There does appear to be on other rocker in the middle hitting, but no where near as bad. I tried "adjusting" my valve covers, but realized I didn't have the proper hammer and it appeared that this would make them very ugly so I decided to cut my losses and plan to come back with proper Valve covers.

The rest of the day was spent cleaning up what I had done alread, installing whatever other connectors, plugs and miscelaneous items I could.


What's Left:
- Find Proper Valve Covers and Install them
- Re-Install Upper Intake (with or without intake spacer)
- Re-Install Exhaust Manifolds
- Re-Install all Electrical Connectors and properly set Camshaft Position Sensor.

The only item on this list I am still not 100% sure on is the Valve Covers. I have heard that the stock '93 5.0 Cobra Valve Covers will fit properly (thanks 410) but I wanted to confirm. If not these, what aftermarket valve covers will fit? I have no problem buying the Valve Covers and an intake spacer if necesssary.

I just need to know which valve covers have the most top and side clearance. Also, if installing the tall valve covers, what other things do I need to be careful of. I am giving myself next Saturday to get these working and if they don't work, I will be replacing whichever Rockers are hitting with the stock stamped rockers until I can get the others to properly fit.

Any help would be greatly appreciated in this matter.

Also, if you have any questions that I may be able to answer, shoot them my way. I left the details out as they have been listed in other threads as well as detailed in Haynes Manuals and what not.
 






Turdle

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Try getting 2 sets of valve cover gaskets (cork) and glue them together(2 per side) with gasket sealer, let them cure good and that should give you the clearance.
 












Cali' Explorer

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JTSmith-
I actually thought about the double Cork Gasket setup. That will probably make enough clearance for the top of the rockers, but that won't do anything to help the side clearance I don't believe. Its the back corner of one rocker that is hitting the valve cover. I don't think its an issue on the drivers side because right where the rocker is hitting is where the valve covers are extended for the Oil Baffle and Fill Neck.

Has anyone ever tried any of the taller FMS Valve Covers? As I say, I know I can get the height clearance without too much of an issue, but its the side clearance that seems to be the biggest issue. The Stock Stamped Valve Covers are pulled in too much from the bolt pattern.

I was looking at a set like these:
Summit Racing: FMS Valve Covers

They are basically the same as listed in the Ebay Auctions by JTSmith. It looks like they are clearanced more around the sides and cut in more.

I also took a look at Ford Parts Network (Actually, now called Fast Parts Network). I looked at Factory '93 Mustang Cobra Valve Covers and they appear to have them for $60 or so a set. What's kind of weird about that is the Oil Filler one is like $50 and the plain one is like $10, haha. Are the '93 HO One's that everyone say will clear everything just the stock '93 Cobra ones, or are they a specialty item that was only put on certaing models?

I will take a trip this evening over to the local speed shop in hopes that they have some of the FMS one's. I took the measurements off of the key points on my current Valve Covers (Both heights and widths) so that I should be able to tell if a set of valve Covers have more clearance then mine or not. The biggest pain is that right where I have no clearance right now is right around where the upper side bolts are on the valve covers... so its probably going to be a tight spot to get around without some sort of modification.

Worst case, these Roller Rockers have a TON of extra metrial compared to the FMS ones. I should be able to pull the one that's causing the problems off, tape it off and hit it with a sanding wheel to knock down the offending edge. Where its hitting is basically just unusable material left over from the extrusion process that they didn't machine. But, I'd like to try and resolve it with Valve Covers first if possible. I can't see it being impossible to find a set that will fit since this is pretty much the only head casting that uses Pedestal Mount Rockers, but we will see.
 






Bill MacLeod

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Steven:

The 93 OEM Cobra stamped steel v/c's were carried over to the 94/95 Cobra's and also the 94/95 HO motor less the cobra embossing. These covers clear the 1.7 rockers.

The aluminum covers used on 87/93 HO motors have internal shoulders/webs that interfer with pedestal alum rockers and any bolt down type. So if you purchase FORD alum covers, beware that many have had to do some grinding on the inside for clearance.

Have said this, many others have used a double gasket as JTSmith suggests with success. If you go this route, look for a 3/16" thick gasket. (either fel-pro or mr. gasket has one)

I will take some pics on the 94/95 HO Mustang covers tonight and send them to you.

Bill
 






410Fortune

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You said two of the rockers were installed cockeyed?
You did install the factory TRAY under the folcrum/pedastle correct?

I torqued my rockers down to 17 fl lbs, needed no shims, and they straighten themselves out perfectly.
The forst side I did (cyl 1-4) I forgot the trays and I was like, something is wrong....hahaha

Good luck!
I should be firing up my engine in the next couple of days, it is ALOT of work if it turns out something does not clear on my setup! YIKES
 






Cali' Explorer

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Yes, I did install the trays, but I installed the trays that came with the new Roller Rockers, not the trays that came off of my old Pedestal mount rockers. Should I have reused the OEM trays? With the trays that came with the Rockers themselves, I can still twist the Rockers slightly from side to side... just enough to get them to line up on with the roller aligned on the left or right side of the valve. THey were originally lined up with the least clearance, so I re-adjusted them which gave me maybe 1/8" more of clearance tops, but every little bit helps.

Also, I went ahead and ordered a set of the FMS Tall Valve Covers from Summit Racing. They sound like they are REALLY tall, but I also ordered a set of 3/8" spacers intake spacers so hopefully they will clear... After seeing the pics of your Cobra Valve Covers and the amount of clearance you have with a 1", a 3/8" should be enough to clear (hopefully). As I say, if I can't get them to fit or I still don't have enough clearance, I will probably just install a couple of good stock rockers in the offending locations so I can at least drive my X again. Its not the ideal situation and very cheesy on my part, but 3 of the old rockers weren't looking so happy so I didn't want to re-use those and its been almost 2 months with no car now, so I need to have SOMETHING to drive.


Has anyone ever installed the tall FMS Valve Covers on their X? 410, I know it looked like you had a set installed on a 5.0 in your photo gallery, were those the tall FMS Valve Covers or the stock size? I know that the tall ones will be a tight squeeze, but if it works, I'll be happy, if not, I'll just return the valve covers.

Thanks again for any help guys, I really do appreciate it.
 






410Fortune

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Robert from TM headers has tested different valve covers with his headers and the 1.7 rockers, he posted in my thread which covers will work:


The only valve covers that would be almost a direct bolt-on and fit the roller rockers would be the '86-'93 Mustang 5.0 valve covers. The Ford Racing catalog has them in chromed aluminum under p/n M-6582-D302.

Also,
Ford Racing polished aluminum valve covers p/n M-6000-K302R.

Ford Racing black satin valve covers p/n M-6000-J302R.

The Ford Racing valve covers you've seen in the Swap Headers photos have the holes in the wrong places or too many. The Explorer/Mountaineer 5.0 has the left (driver) side valve cover with no openings. The right (passenger) side has only the neck opening towards the front for oil fill. The above valve covers come extremely close and should be able to be adapted very easily.

These valve covers should clear the Torque Monster Headers, whether they're standard Explorer/Mountaineer Headers or Swap Headers.

These are photos of the '86-'93 valve covers painted blue on a '99 Explorer 5.0 V8 going into a 95 Ranger. As you will see, the Headers clear.

Bob Pasquale
Tech Performance & Engineering
Torque Monster Headers

When you torqued down your rockers they did not straighten out? I couldnt move mine side to side if I wanted to.
 






Cali' Explorer

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Thanks for that info from Bob. I am actually going to take a ride over to the local speed shop tonight as well. The biggest issue is that I have absolutely no time left. If I don't get my car running this next weekend, my business is going to go belly up, so I don't have time to hunt down mustang valve covers.

I could try the FMS ones they have listed... very blingy though and very pricey, that and I HATE chromed/polished anything. Haha, but if it comes to that, it may be my last option.

Also, with the tall valve covers, was it an issue of not clearing major engine components, or not clearing the TM Headers? Since I don't have TM Headers, this wouldn't be an issue for me, at least not any time soon.


As for the side to side motion, that is BEFORE they are torqued down. Once they are torqued down, they don't move at all, but while adjusting them, they still have a little side to side play. But, I can set them a little more clockwise or counterclockwise before I torque them down and have them stay there.

Also, with the shims, keep in mind that I had my Cylinder Heads machined, so they may have anywhere from 5 to 15 thousandths taken off of them (How much I don't know because the shop never told me what they machined off *grumble*).


Is there any severe disdvantage to running 2 stock stamped steel rockers with all the rest being roller Rockers for a short time? The biggest issue is that the X is about 120 miles away from me during the week. This means I can't just run out and check fitment of parts etc... so that gives me Saturday and Sunday to get it working, when there are no shops open to get parts at. This is what has made this particular process harder. Worst case I will run 1/2 Roller 1/2 Stamped stuff (assuming it won't blow the engine, which it shouldn't) until I can get it back up here and have time to hunt down the right valve covers.
 






410Fortune

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ah the headers kinda swoop over the valve covers in a couple of places, so the headers were what I was concerned most about.
You could likely make your stock covers fit with the double gasket trick I would think, I mean Section cleared his #5 cyl with an air hammer...

I love a good challenge, sounds like you got one here!

I am new to all this as well, this was my first valve train install (fingers crossed) :)
 






Cali' Explorer

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Well, I may have just gotten a line on a set of '93 Valve Covers... What is it specifically I am supposed to look out for when getting the '93's? If I get the '93's, I'm stuck with them as they are private party, so I don't want to order if I'm sure of it (I will get pictures of the tops, bottoms, etc.. before hand).

Thanks again guys, this is great information.
 






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If you are referring to 93 Mustang HO covers, they should be cast aluminum. I have heard that in most to all cases when using roller rockers of any kind, that the inside webs have to be groung down because of contact and also the baffle has to be removed.

The going price is normally 20 to 30 bucks for these covers, so cost wise, they may be worth a try.

Bill
 






410Fortune

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Allright these are the 93 covers I got from my friend Brett:

valvenew.jpg


I believe they are simply 93 HO factory covers from a Mustang ????

They had an oil baffle in both sides.
There is only structural "webbing" to pick up the 2 screws and make a flat surface for the baffle to rest on.
The baffle hit the 1.6 Ford Racing rocker on both sides, enough to where you could not even seat the valve cover.

I removed the oil baffles but I did not grind out the "webbing"
I checked clearance with no gaskets and vaseline, turned the engine over probably 3 times.
Nothing, nada

With the Ford gaskets I do not expect them to hit, if they do the upper intake comes off and I figure it out :fire: = grinder.

You can see how the TM headers come close on both sides, so a really tall valve cover that comes straight up off the heads might not work with these.

valvetrainpass.jpg


I have more pictures at home, including the under side of the covers.
 



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Bill MacLeod

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Good pics 410. Those are fox body cast aluminum covers. Steven could probably use any pics you have of the underside of the covers.
 






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