turdle's mounty moves on

[CDW6212R]

That's what it was, the 70's are less wide. I was thinking of using those, they'd need to be angled at about 45 degrees. A friend of mine had mounted two old Flowmasters long ago in his 97 Explorer. They fit but hang down just a hair to see under the frame. With those 12" wide you might try stacking them to see how the 10" total would look under there.

 

[pufferfish]

by the way, i got the AEM cam sensor on friday. interesting piece. the shaft splits just above the cam gear. its just a flat blade connection. this suprises me. i would have thought the bearing in the housing was necessary in conjunction with the bearing surface in the block? i will try to remember to snap off a couple of pics tonight. i intend to run my modified stock sensor first to get it running and then swap this piece in to see if the assumptions that it will work are correct

 

[pufferfish]

and here it is...

 

[pufferfish]

exhaust fab has begun! i started with a set of Chromed BBK 302 Fox Mustang headers. primaries are 1.75". the collector is 3". i planned to use these headers to cut up and reconfigure to fit the mountaineer. the passenger side header is almost done. i just need the collector. with some effort, they are able to be put on and taken off from the wheel well. the driver side, on the other hand, is going to be RIDICULOUS! i don't know if this header will be able to be removed without lifting out the engine or at least removing the steering shaft. we will see!

 

[Mountaineer1113]

Awesome work! Can't wait to see the end result. From where you're at, can you see any way of lengthening the primaries? I'm thinking not on the driver side but it looks(judging from the pic) like you've got a hair of space in there on the passenger side.

 

[pufferfish]

the bottleneck in space on the passenger side is passing between the frame and the trans bellhousing. there's barely enough room for a 3" pipe (with acceptable clearance for engine shake). if the 4 primaries were in line, they could get by, but by doing that, there wouldn't be a snowballs chance in hell of getting the header in and out without removing the engine. as for the driver side, i believe the same issue will be present, only its got to fit between the oil pan and front driveshaft and pumpkin. not sure on space there yet. i have to wait until i get a driveshaft made to adapt the 4406 to the front diff.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Heads?

What heads do you have on the 408? Will the headers allow enough room to change the spark plugs? I'm very impressed with the progress you have made.

 

[pufferfish]

i have the pro-topline cnc heads. on the passenger side, i was able to use the bbk primaries as is from the flange to the end of the first bend, so the plugs will have the same clearance as a mustang would. that said, it will be a bit troublesome to get to plug #4 due to being so close to the a/c box...but its not impossible. i actually did have plugs in and out with every step of creating the header. they just werent in the pic because i put the header back in just to snap that picture.

again, the driver side will prove to be a challenge here too. the passenger header took about 5 hours to this point with removing it somewhere around 10 times. i expect another 2 or so to finish it up. i have a feeling the driver header is going to take MUCH longer...mostly due to getting it in and out.

 

[pufferfish]

no new progress, but i feel the need to post life has been very busy lately. between thanksgiving, setting up christmas decorations, christmas shopping and being in Chicago for a week for work, the past couple of weeks have been a blurr! this weekend isnt going to improve. my sons b-day party is saturday with alot of setup needed at the house beforehand. i only have next weekend available until after new years. that sucks. i really thought i would be farther along.

i have made 2 decisions, however. first, the turdle will live. i am going to fix her up for 2 reasons. 1) i would have nothing to drive while i put this powertrain into my truck. 2) putting the powertrain in this truck was painful enough. i can't imagine having to remove it for any reason! the second decision is that i am going to go with the gt40 intake setup. its actually not the cheapest option because of the rare 351 lower intakes, but i really want a more bolt in look. after talking with a port guy (tmoss on corral), i wouldnt need to do anything more than gasket match the lower (it flows 280cfm out of the box) and the explorer upper will flow 260+ with some minor work. since my heads flow around 260-270 at my cam's lift, i will be right at the max capability of the upper. being a little under actually seems like a good idea for velocity.

 

[CDW6212R]

I hope you are having good times with the kids and family, that's most important.

For the engine I wouldn't use the GT40 intake. That is okay for size on a 302 to run near 6000rpm. But it's bad for a 408 sized engine, it's about 302/408 too small. The only up side to the GT40 is the simple TB layout and connections. I'm not going to hesitate to modify mine if I ever get to adding boost. Meaning for any change it will be to a larger intake, the largest possible.

Your 408 will be tall enough that not every intake would fit, but I'd look hard at the TFS "R" models. The elbow or TB layout would be the hardest part, but worth it. BTW, Tom ported my GT40 lower before I learned about proper intake sizing. I wouldn't do it again, it's a 302 intake for stock rpm. Regards,

 

[pufferfish]

just to be clear. Tom told me that the 351 gt40 lower is way better in stock form than its "little brother". his best porting on the little guy gets about 250cfm, whereas the 351 piece flows 280cfm in stock form. thats a big difference. its really the upper that becomes the bottle neck, at 250cfm in stock form.

there are better performance choices out there for sure, but the tfs-r is overkill for my engine. i cant find the flow numbers for it right now, but the 351w version flows north of 320cfm. my heads only flow 289@.700.

 

[CDW6212R]

That's the mistake, you are worrying about flow numbers, dyno data. It seems hard for people to understand, but dynos and flow data are not the same as track times. It seems logical that flow data would represent real track times, but it does not.

The goal is to accelerate the engine through its rpm band as fast as possible. The goal is not to make the most HP at a given static rpm, or fulfill some theoretical flow requirement of a given sized engine.

The goal is to maximize airflow through the engine, which will enable the engine to rpm quicker. The larger parts will always rpm faster than smaller parts, given the right fuel and spark.

The TFS "R" intake works great on a plain 302 engine, given the right camshaft made for that intake and heads. They don't work well with the wrong cam, or small heads.

My cam was custom designed for my GT40 intake, so I can't gain anything by swapping to a better intake. But if I could do it over, I'd have had the cam made for a TFS "R" intake.

Stop relying on flow numbers or dyno data, Tom has not learned that yet. I know him from both the Corral and the SBFtech site. He is married to that flow data mentality, he does not get that a custom cam designed for a specific huge intake will work, and blow away a smaller intake. Next time you go into that engine, replace the heads, intake, and cam with a matched set designed together. that's worth 1/2 to a full second in the 1/4 mile. Regards,

 

[pufferfish]

i understand what you are saying and i agree...with parts of it.

track times do speak volumes more than dynos or flow charts. it shows how well matched the entire drivetrain is to the vehicle. you just cant build based on track times since they happen after the build. math and experience are the only way to build engines.

a 302 with a tfs-r and matched cam, heads and exhaust would make gobs of power.

heres where i jump ship on you. that tfs-r 302 could make tremendous power, but would be a terrible choice for a dd 4300lb brick with a slush box. i understand that adding 106 cubic inches to that equation makes it way more logical though. its food for thought. i guess i need to evaluate this further. i do intend on making my choice, putting it on and leaving it there forever, so understanding how the engine will respond with a given intake is paramount. honestly though, if i were going to go the route of the tfs-r intake, i would stick with my efi spyder thats on there now. i just don't need that much. i have 1k less rpm, 30 degrees less duration and i am confident that i will not be able to get the same exhaust flow.

 

[CDW6212R]

I would keep that EFI Spyder intake on the 408 for sure. That isn't the top intake but it is close, and the GT40 is way far away down the list.

Your heads aren't the greatest either but given the 408 CI and a good intake, a custom cam would more than hold it's own against any similar weight vehicle.

You didn't mention many details about that engine before, and I figured you would see the light and stay with the 347. Since you are going to make the Windsor work, I would rework the heads to match a custom cam designed just for that truck and engine. That cost would be minimal, if the engine was out. I know how much trouble it is to R&R that engine, it's a shame it couldn't have been done before.

FYI, a proper custom cam will be designed to include use of valve springs which are not used in OTS heads or typical head builds. Meaning when planned for, a custom cam will be designed to utilize specific springs(likely stiffer and with tighter coil bind) that 99% of the time are not on existing heads. So done right a custom cam is made, and the heads it's made for are then set up with different springs(specified by the cam designer). It all adds up to more rpm acceleration(not dyno power), plus the best driveability.

A custom cam made for actual specific heads and intake will not be down on power at any rpm(any rpm), compared to any smaller intake, heads, or OTS cams. That does not apply to parts which you or I select, it only applies to parts and cam designed by a cam expert. BTW, the big cam companies do not qualify as cam experts. Their tech line guys are paid to sell you one of their OTS cams. If you insist on paying them extra for a "custom" cam, they will throw one together, but it's nothing like the real deal from the real cam guru's. The best I know of for Ford cams is Jay Allen, who is not available right now. The other I hear of a lot is Ed Curtis, but I don't know enough to really endorse him. He likes AFR heads, and that to me is a black mark, those are not the best Ford heads at all.

 

[pufferfish]

maryland inspectors are pricks and if anything looks out of the norm, they go ballistic. its really got me worried right now. i cant hide the headers and exhaust, but i do plan to build it all legal like. the engine really won't look any different from a stock 5.0 to the layman...unless i have an aftermarket intake on. the spyder will stick out like a sore thumb for sure. the tfs-r might not get too much attention. it is a damn nice intake out of the box. you may have swayed my opinion. i will have to fab an elbow, but it shouldn't be too much of an issue. the cost may be about the same as buying the gt40 lower and explorer upper and having them ported.

 

[ford99_1979]

If you want the intake to look more factory. You could try using a stock explorer elbow, maybe at least just to pass inspection. I have a TFS streat heat intake with factory elbow. The factory elbow is 70mm diameter and retains all factory throttle cable, cruise cable pick ups and related bracketry.

I have an extra one if you are interested.

 

[pufferfish]

thats a really good idea! it really doesn't look too far off of stock! i appreciate the offer for your extra elbow, but i am sure i could get on at the pick-n-pull tomorrow for less than shipping.

 

[CDW6212R]

maryland inspectors are pricks and if anything looks out of the norm, they go ballistic. its really got me worried right now. i cant hide the headers and exhaust, but i do plan to build it all legal like. the engine really won't look any different from a stock 5.0 to the layman...unless i have an aftermarket intake on. the spyder will stick out like a sore thumb for sure. the tfs-r might not get too much attention. it is a damn nice intake out of the box. you may have swayed my opinion. i will have to fab an elbow, but it shouldn't be too much of an issue. the cost may be about the same as buying the gt40 lower and explorer upper and having them ported.

That's a whole different issue, emissions laws in many states are crazy. I think Maryland is one of those too. I'd ask some questions of local car clubs about that, or at least online see what you can find.

The stiffest laws usually fail any modifications, but the next level down is typically about confirming the existence of all factory smog equipment. In those states the cats are usually the biggest hurdle, to have the number they want or that they are OEM or OEM replacements.

Hopefully you can be good by maintaining the EGR pipe, and concentrate on the cats. The stock elbow is great for mounting everything easily, but it does have a smallish size. I had mine hand ported slightly, and it still ended up around 70mm. I have worked the inlet edge to match my 75mm TB, which should be a minimum size for a 347 engine size. If I ever get to a boost combo, the intake and TB etc, will be 90mm for sure.

Brad's engine bay looks great, hopefully that wouldn't bother anybody but say the nutty CA laws.

 

[ford99_1979]

Don, you must not have got much ported on your factory elbow if it still ended up being 70mm. I slapped a digital micrometer on mine on both ends and it is 70mm. Is it small for what puffer is trying to do, yes. Is it small for my application, yes. The factory integration outweighed the smallish size. I wish there was more material in the factory elbow so it could be hogged out to a larger size but the wall thickness is not there do make much of a difference.

puffer I hope you can find a solution to make the smog guys happy. Can't wait to see you finish this project.

 

[pufferfish]

maryland did pass my mustang when i first bought it. it had a vorteched 302 and a catted h-pipe with only 2 cats instead of the original 4. believe that because of my mods in the mustang, they scrutinized every little thing. i got dinged for having clear bulbs behind the yellow side marker lenses! so, i don't think they can ding for the performance stuff as long as all the emissions stuff is there. but they do seem to nit pick heavily when they see that stuff under the hood. my mountaineer was a breeze in comparison. they only went after a tie rod end that was actually on its way out.

i am definitely going to make sure all the emissions stuff is in tact and functioning. i prefer it that way anyhow.