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Dreamr's 5.0 top end build up

JDraper

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Dreamr, those #'s don't add up. Durations are good, but the lift has gotta be wrong. Those #'s should be more like .499/.510, not .108/.116 . If they truly are .108/.116 it's no wonder the car has no power...that's less lift than stock...:eek:
 


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dreamr

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On my cam card it has two boxes of numbers. Those are the ones at the bottom under the title Cam Timing.

Advertised #'s for the cam are in the top box and listed below

Intake @cam 312 @valve with 1.6 rockers 499 duration 275
Exhaust @cam 319 @valve w/ 1.6's 510 duration 279



So I keep tinkering and took it for a drive to the parts stores looking for someone who carries some decent diagnostic equipment.....

She is running a lot stronger down low with a little less fuel pressure (hair under 39) was just under 40.......... The idle is best right around 1 k, but it's hard to stop...@800 it is hard to keep runnning when in gear....at least it sounds that way though it does not die or even try for that matter. At the lower rpm the hanging idle is not nearly as big of an issue. Interestingly the idle does not hang at all if I unplug the IAC.

I also noticed that the PCV hose was split so this was replaced....Grr this gets frustrating :confused:
Dyno tuning will run me close to 500 dollars locally which I can not afford at this time so I guess I tinker till it's right, and when I do get 500 I spend it on a Tweecer unit vs. dyno tuning..

This thing is gonna be scary when tuned right! It is misting outside today so the roads are wet, but if I pass the 1/4 throttle mark the ass end kicks out sideways......even with 2.73 gears
 




rookieshooter

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It's been years since I messed with HP cams. Is this cam listed as a wild street cam, mild street or what? Still sounds to me that it has way too much overlap for low rpm performance. This will really effect the vacuum. Also if the ex. valve opens too early you get that rumble noise associated with wild cams. That's due to partially unburned gasses getting out the exhaust. Now this is fine for higher rpm's but a bitch for idling and lower speeds. Also I'm concerned about the 2.73 rear gears. I would think that those gears might also make it stumble a little on take off with a wild cam. Seems a might conservative.
Do you nobody that has the same setup?
 








JDraper

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It's been years since I messed with HP cams. Is this cam listed as a wild street cam, mild street or what? Still sounds to me that it has way too much overlap for low rpm performance. This will really effect the vacuum. Also if the ex. valve opens too early you get that rumble noise associated with wild cams. That's due to partially unburned gasses getting out the exhaust. Now this is fine for higher rpm's but a bitch for idling and lower speeds. Also I'm concerned about the 2.73 rear gears. I would think that those gears might also make it stumble a little on take off with a wild cam. Seems a might conservative.
Do you nobody that has the same setup?

That particular cam is listed as having a power band from 2000 to 5500 rpms when matched with Twisted Wedge heads..It's in the high performance street/bracket racing range.

I agree, the 2.73 gears are gonna kill you off the line. You should be up at around 3.55's to really take advantage of your setup.
 




dreamr

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Rookie:
The cam is the trickflow stage 1 and should be a moderate grind for the street. The TF rep I spoke with said that it was the only one that I would be comfortable with in an Automatic. I was told the powerband would move up to 1500 to 6k. I am not all that concerned with lower performance down low. It was part of my goal actually to keep the car relatively tame at low rpm driving in the city. My initial test drive showed though that I had nothing down low. Where as tuning since that time has brought it up to around stock levels plus a wee bit (via seat of pants). The vacuum is a bit of a concern though as I am not all that sure I am getting adequate #'s to power the breaks and smog equipment. Though it brakes just fine when I put it in neutral.

I have been looking for folks with a similar setup on various mustang forums to question them.....Sadly of those I found the majority seem to be of a type that has no clue what is happening under their hoods, they just dish out the bucks to have someone build it... There are a few though who have done the same set-up themselves, and they too have had similar issues with timing and vacuum but I have found no follow-up as to how the issue was corrected.
Sometimes forums are a bit annoying in that regard.

Gears are addressed below with commentary regarding JDraper's post

JT:
I am not sure what the seperation is, and do not see it listed on the card

Jdraper and Rookie:
You are right on the gearing. It has needed to drop ratio since I bought the car. These are still the factory gears. I had thought to do it earlier, but have since decided to get the engine top end and bottom end as well as tranny done first, then gear accordingly. The reasoning behind this was that I did not want to end up going to low for what the car is used for. This way I know where the power will be at and can gear as conservatively as possible while maintaining the performance. I am thinking currently that your shot for 3.55 will be the direction I go. Many on the 'Stang forums say that a 4.10 is the only way to go on a AOD car, but I see this and likely even 3.73 being to low for daily service and freeway driving @ 75 for up to 900 miles at a time. I know I hate the 4.56 in my truck when I am on the freeway due to the high revs, but love them in the city and offroad for the torqueiness they provide.

UI wish I had the money for a pro to tune this sucker in. The more I tweak it the more I realize just how scary it is really going to be.

Is their a old school way of telling how rich or lean I am running? I believe a lean condition would really heat up the headers, and rich I should be able to smell in the exhaust? Is this true?
 




dreamr

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As a side note I am going to use up the rest of my rolls of vacuum line to replace all the old stuff. Perhaps there is a small crack that I cannot detect. This just seems to be an area that I must be having issues in. It fits many of the symptoms, and I am only running 12" of vacuum today. Yesterday I got just under 13, and it was originally at 14. It would seem that a crack may be growing?

Even with the reduced vacuum because of the cam you would think I would be running higher #'s Stock is around 20-22 at sea level. JT is running like 17 with an x-cam if I remember correctly from his underhood bug thread. I just think mine should be higher. I am fairly confident I have no manifold leaks, so this leaves the hoses to check, and where it isn't costing anything but time I should eliminate the possibility completely. Even if the propane test didn't indicate an issue.
 




rookieshooter

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The cam is the trickflow stage 1 and should be a moderate grind for the street. The TF rep I spoke with said that it was the only one that I would be comfortable with in an Automatic. I was told the powerband would move up to 1500 to 6k. I am not all that concerned with lower performance down low. It was part of my goal actually to keep the car relatively tame at low rpm driving in the city. My initial test drive showed though that I had nothing down low. Where as tuning since that time has brought it up to around stock levels plus a wee bit (via seat of pants). The vacuum is a bit of a concern though as I am not all that sure I am getting adequate #'s to power the breaks and smog equipment. Though it brakes just fine when I put it in neutral.

I have been looking for folks with a similar setup on various mustang forums to question them.....Sadly of those I found the majority seem to be of a type that has no clue what is happening under their hoods, they just dish out the bucks to have someone build it... There are a few though who have done the same set-up themselves, and they too have had similar issues with timing and vacuum but I have found no follow-up as to how the issue was corrected.
Sometimes forums are a bit annoying in that regard.

Gears are addressed below with commentary regarding JDraper's post

JT:
I am not sure what the seperation is, and do not see it listed on the card

Jdraper and Rookie:
You are right on the gearing. It has needed to drop ratio since I bought the car. These are still the factory gears. I had thought to do it earlier, but have since decided to get the engine top end and bottom end as well as tranny done first, then gear accordingly. The reasoning behind this was that I did not want to end up going to low for what the car is used for. This way I know where the power will be at and can gear as conservatively as possible while maintaining the performance. I am thinking currently that your shot for 3.55 will be the direction I go. Many on the 'Stang forums say that a 4.10 is the only way to go on a AOD car, but I see this and likely even 3.73 being to low for daily service and freeway driving @ 75 for up to 900 miles at a time. I know I hate the 4.56 in my truck when I am on the freeway due to the high revs, but love them in the city and offroad for the torqueiness they provide.

UI wish I had the money for a pro to tune this sucker in. The more I tweak it the more I realize just how scary it is really going to be.

Is their a old school way of telling how rich or lean I am running? I believe a lean condition would really heat up the headers, and rich I should be able to smell in the exhaust? Is this true?


http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/Spark_Plugs_catalog.html

Here's some old school spark plug reading pics. Just click on each one too enlarge.

About smelling gas I suppose so. I know on my injected racing engines I would allways turn the barrel adjusting nut untill she started to blow a little black out the header. So I'm sure if it was that rich you could smell it. But learning to read plugs is the ticket. You most certainly do not want to lean it out too much.
 




Turdle

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Dreamr
I do have 15in or a bit more, but this is at 1000 rpm's
I had 17 when it was around 1050-1100. The scan tool showed my tach was off a bit, and thru adjusting the TB again, I was able to bring the idle down.
13-14 at 900 is pretty good for a "cam"

You might consider raising the idle a bit, as this is the lowest it will idle withut a CEL
In drive, idle is 850-950, if I try to set nuetral idle to 800-900, drive idle really stumbles, setting a p14XX?? idle control circuit failure.

Torque converter????
 




rookieshooter

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Ya, seems like this cam likes the higher idle. About the notion that you think you have a vacuum leak. Take some starter fluid and spray around all the hoses and intake manifold. Just a little at a time. I would do this while engine is cold for obvious reasons. If there is a leak you will notice an increase in rpms
 




Turdle

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Oh
another thought
fuel pressure is vacuum regulated--as vacuum falls, pressure rises.
At idle, slower speed =lower vacuum=higher fuel pressure.
If the idle is overly lopey, the fuel pressure will fluctuate wildly.
I would shoot for a smooth 950-1000 rpm idle, then check drivability
 




dreamr

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Thank you all for your support!

First off thanks for the spark plug link rookie....that will indeed prove to be helpful with tuning.

As to idle, it deffinately needs a bump up. I had hoped that idleing closer to the stock level would eliminate some of the hanging issues... as it did, but in the end it runs like crap idleing under 900..... back up we go

I tried all of the vacuum leak detection tricks I have heard of, but never found any. I figure I may as well replace them since I have all this braided stainless line sitting here anyway....still slowly working on that though.
 








dreamr

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Awesome! Thanks so very much JT.



As a small update that hasn't been tested yet. I read a post on the corral where a guy was having a similar issue with the timing. He would set it at 14 degrees advanced and the car would run like crap.....base timing readings were 14 but when he plugged the shunt back in it would only jump to like 20. I seemed to have this exact same issue, and this gentlemans issues came after installing the holley systemax heads, cam, intake with all new misc components as well. When he would bump the base timing to 27 or so the car ran great...with EEC advance that equalled out to the stock 32-36 range. Many people have offered suggestions as to the cam being installed a bit off (read timing chain) or the dizzy being a tooth off. His problem is still unresolved, but a poster described the TFI ignition system, and basically said that the most likely culprit was the TFI module itself. Apparently if it is not functioning properly the eec relies on other parameters and retards the timing to keep things from destroying themselves....

What does this have to do with me? well I figured I should replace my TFI early on in this project. I was running low on money so went with a cheap Neihoff product. Further more I cut the dielectic grease corner and lost the packet so installed it without any........A shot in the dark, but with only two bolts holding it in place how could I not re-install the stock unit sitting on my workbench.......Tomorrow after work will tell me if this helps anything.........

Vaccuum line, Damn there is a lot of that stuff in the car!!!!!! Some of it that I never messed with was in pretty bad shape, though it did not seem to have broken untill I played with it. Currently I have most of it replaced, but need more line (and I thought I had a lot of the fancy braided steel stuff i bought for my truck 3 years ago :rolleyes: ). A question here though. On the driver side of the car I have a vaccum t. 1 port to brake booster, One to an unknown location in the car, one to the intake source, one that's blocked, and one that is labeled A/c. The ac line runs to a check valve and the splits into two lines. One goes into the firewall to the Air conditioning thingy in there (too lazy to pull the dash). The other dissapears into the fender and I think makes it's way into the car interior. I assume these lines were for the since removed A/C system.....can I remove them and block the port??????
 




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In a heart beat I would block them off. At worst case you may have to reconnect back for something to work. You only have so much vacuum to work with. Just wondering if you do block them off and you find out that you do not need them. Why not just run a dirrect line to brake booster.

Also count me as one of those that thought that the chain may be a tooth off. That's what I was reffering to in an earlier post. One tooth off is not much movement of cam gear as one might think. But you sound very confident that it is lined up.
 




dreamr

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In a heart beat I would block them off. At worst case you may have to reconnect back for something to work. You only have so much vacuum to work with. Just wondering if you do block them off and you find out that you do not need them. Why not just run a dirrect line to brake booster.

Also count me as one of those that thought that the chain may be a tooth off. That's what I was reffering to in an earlier post. One tooth off is not much movement of cam gear as one might think. But you sound very confident that it is lined up.

Exactly my thoughts on vacuum, with so little then why keep running that part of the system? If it turns out that I do not need them, then I think I will also follow your advice and run direct lines for everything rather than have the main lines run to one splitter after another.

Cam timing, may be off, but I am fairly certain that it is not. When all was said and done them there dots lined up, so I just hope that nothing slipped, and that the cam was ground the way it should be.
 




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While we are on this subject
My camshaft was degreed in by my engine builder- who recommended advancing it by 4 degrees to enhance vacuum-and move the power band down a bit.

He ended up using a 2 degree button. the cam was ground 2 degrees off.
 




rookieshooter

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He may wind up doing that to get that low end performance. If not a new milder cam may be in order. I hope not. I know on my street/strip cars I had to idle around 900 to 1000.
I'm just in the dark about EFI. Seems that certain sensors could really be a big problem when it comes to metering the gas correctly with the wilder cam and timing.
 




JDraper

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Dreamr, what's the final overdrive ratio for your AOD? I have a T-5 in our '66 that has an .62 5th gear ratio, and it's about perfect for freeway driving with the 3.55's in the axle. We're turning about 2000-2200 rpms at 70 mph.
 


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dreamr

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While we are on this subject
My camshaft was degreed in by my engine builder- who recommended advancing it by 4 degrees to enhance vacuum-and move the power band down a bit.

He ended up using a 2 degree button. the cam was ground 2 degrees off.

Now that there is my fear, I really really really don't want to tear it down again.....though I bet I could do it in an evening this time around :D

Thanks again for the adjuster plate I will try it tomorrow afternoon/evening.



rookieshooter said:
Seems that certain sensors could really be a big problem when it comes to metering the gas correctly with the wilder cam and timing.

Now there be my suspicions to the letter.

JDraper said:
Dreamr, what's the final overdrive ratio for your AOD? I have a T-5 in our '66 that has an .62 5th gear ratio, and it's about perfect for freeway driving with the 3.55's in the axle. We're turning about 2000-2200 rpms at 70 mph.

I believe the OD reduction is .67. Sounds like the 3.55 may be the ticket....I like what your rpms at freeway speed are. The only reason I really care is my exhaust really drones between 2500 and 3 k.
 




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