The Black Hole

gmanpaint · October 9, 2020

Yeah, it's a tank. Everything is pretty much HD on it.

Better than what RJ thought it would be. He guessed it at 8000! LMAO!

Rick · October 9, 2020

gmanpaint said:
Yeah, it's a tank. Everything is pretty much HD on it.

So is the Pumpkin, it's even got a heavier D60 rear axle! Not only that, but I carry spare parts for both 1st and 2nd gen Explorers in there including a spare driveshaft, front axles, etc etc... :dunno:

gmanpaint · October 9, 2020

This rear axle might as well be a D60 after the mods done to it. LOL

The rear springs alone are like 100 lbs each.

Rear bumper is heavy, but the front isn't.

Winch runs Syn rope, so not that heavy anymore.

The front skid is heavy at 50 lbs being 3/8" thick.

Roof rack is 100 Lbs, and add the hi lift jack mounted on it too.

Thick wall Sliders are heavy as all get out.

Rear cargo box is right at 100 lbs, plus another 100 loaded.

I carry front/rear spare drivelines, and both front half shaft axles on board.

We run the same heavy atlas case, and HD 1350 drivelines. Our wheels & tires are pretty close too. You have a cage, I do not.

I think the big difference between ours, is the engine & trans.

Rick · October 9, 2020

gmanpaint said:
This rear axle might as well be a D60 after the mods done to it. LOL

The rear springs alone are like 100 lbs each.

Rear bumper is heavy, but the front isn't.

Winch runs Syn rope, so not that heavy anymore.

The front skid is heavy at 50 lbs being 3/8" thick.

Roof rack is 100 Lbs, and add the hi lift jack mounted on it too.

Thick wall Sliders are heavy as all get out.

Rear cargo box is right at 100 lbs, plus another 100 loaded.

I carry front/rear spare drivelines, and both front half shaft axles on board.

We run the same heavy atlas case, and HD 1350 drivelines. Our wheels & tires are pretty close too. You have a cage, I do not.

I think the big difference between ours, is the engine & trans.

Time for a diet, or a V8

Mine is a still a bone stock 4.0. Manual trans is a disadvantage since it doesn't offer the torque multiplication that a torque converter does.

gmanpaint · October 9, 2020

Rick said:
Time for a diet, or a V8

Mine is a still a bone stock 4.0. Manual trans is a disadvantage since it doesn't offer the torque multiplication that a torque converter does.

V8 swap.... Done. Additional affordable power adds, in the works.

Diet.... Yup, I could stand to lose 20 lbs!

The manual was nice for a lot of things, over the current Auto, but it also was a PITA for others. Overall, I think the Auto wins for the type of use this rig is now setup for. Still has challenges of it's own to overcome tho, and not perfect by no means. Having to worry about overheating is the biggest concern with it, and an issue I didn't have with the Manual. I miss that aspect for sure.

I think the one add on I would change up on the rig is the front skid. It has saved damages a couple of times, but it really is overkill. The other is the rear leafs. They are pretty much 1 ton truck leafs. I need a good set of lift packs, but the rear frame end needs fixed before I can do that. It's a problem for another day tho.

boominXplorer · October 9, 2020

Are you running 4.56 or 4.88 gears?

gmanpaint · October 9, 2020

boominXplorer said:
Are you running 4.56 or 4.88 gears?

4:56

4:88 would be too deep for high speeds over 60 mph in 3rd gear towing.

Without pulling the off road trailer, it does just fine, as is. If I didn't tow, I would jump to a deeper gear being able to use over drive. But, I need it to tow. Thus the want for more hp.

410Fortune · October 10, 2020

try the next round of mods and see if you are happy
Changing the shift points can help you immensely, all of us 5.0, 4 speed owners know that feeling.....mash the pedal.....nothing happens....waiting for that kick down......then the drop to 3rd is too little too late

I would for sure put some holes in that skid plate
Consider a diet for the truck? I'm not sure where... but I do know the recovery equipment and spare parts are not doing you any good if you cannot even get to the wheeling destination!!!!!!
6600 has got to be one of the heaviest 4 doors I know of!!

gmanpaint · October 10, 2020

Hey now..... Don't be adding 600 lbs to it!

When your a big boy to begin with, you can't afford any extra, even by mistake! That's how the passing of misinformation chain works!

It's 6000 lbs fairly loaded with gear and tools.

Kickdown is set alright. Half throttle and it kicks pretty instant.

OK, so too many posts spread out over a couple pages on the same topic. Let's re-cap so everybody is on the same page, and up to speed here.

I either sell the trailer, sell this rig, or figure a way to get enough power added to it, to over come the new towing issue at hand.

Issues are only when TOWING with OVERDRIVE turned OFF, and keeping speed up a steep grade. Does fine otherwise.

Already doing 3000 RPM's in 3rd gear with 4:56 gears at 65 mph. I do not want to raise the rpm's any higher than that by gearing deeper, or changing to smaller tires on the rig.

A little more HP is wanted to help overcome that issue. A tune is wanted to help with shift points, adjust for a cam & header install. That's it, nothing more.

Trailer is built around 35" tires to match ride height of the rig. Timbren axleless suspsension is not made where you can lift it once installed. I am already running the biggest lift spindle they offer. Even if I did have the $ to change to smaller tires, the minimal gains wouldn't be worth the overall scratch. I will sell the trailer before I do this.

410Fortune · October 10, 2020

oh dang I see now 6260 my dyslexia saw 6600 for some reason!!

<-------------------misinformation spreader

boominXplorer · October 10, 2020

How does it tow in overdrive at 70mph on flat land? I never have turned off overdrive towing a trailer with my ranger except when city driving. Heaviest load i put behind it is about 5000lbs though and my truck is probably 1000 lbs lighter than yours. I have the stg 1 cam and 4.88s so I stay more in my power band with the lower gears.

My trans Temps stay under 185 cruising on the hwy laoded in overdrive too. Now if I get in some stop and go with a full load I've seen it hit 200 on a summer day. I am running the factory cooler through the radiator setup.

gmanpaint · October 10, 2020

On flat land (which is rare around here, and will be hitting steep Mountain passes on all my excursion trips) it can pull in overdrive, and temps are around 200-210. Any, and I mean any change in grade, and it will climb to 230+ degrees in OD, and lose speed instantly. When that happens, I have no choice but to turn off the OD, to maintain any speed over 60 mph. My trips are well over 1000 miles, one way, and traverse up & over the Rocky Mountains. Runaway truck lanes, burn your brakes type grades.

Only way to keep the temps around 200 is OD off, and no faster than 65 MPH. From what I am told, I'm not ever supposed to use OD with towing. Ford even says not to to do it. This was proven on this rig last month towing the trailer home 800 miles. I would love to be able to use OD, and get the RPM's lowered to 2200 while maintaining 70 mph! Trust me on that! lol

Radiator is bypassed, and a larger trans cooler, with pusher fan is used. Now, I want to change the tube & fin cooler to a plate style, BUT the problem I ran into with that, is the thickness of them. I only have enough room to run a 3/4" thick cooler between the the condenser cooler, and the core support. All the larger plate coolers are over 1" thick, and most are 1.5" thick. I have the largest sized tube & fin that can fit currently. the all Aluminum radiator I have now, has presented a problem with the trans bung threads for the lines. They do not accept the stock line fitting style. Haven't figured the proper style yet for them. I "Think" they are 5/8"-18, but the flared inlets are super shallow. Stock flare fittings are too long, and they bottom out before the threads even touch. PITA!

Ok, so now that I have relocated the PS cooler, it freed up that space. Wondering if I can get like an F-250 cooler, and run it having dual trans coolers. It's long and short, and Might fit with some fabricated brackets to extend it out in front of that space above the PS rack. Skid plate would protect it.

So if I can get 24 hp out of the TM headers, maybe another 25 hp out of a cam swap, and maybe a few more with a good tune, that might be all it needs to help towing a 2500 lb load behind a 3 ton rig. Maybe?

boominXplorer · October 10, 2020

Well I'm definitely in the "flatlander" area where I'm at and driving. I would also consider 4.88 gears, there's so much more power to be had at the higher rpms especially with a cam. All that is the reason I can run at a higher speed in o/d while towing. My truck will never downshift into 2nd gear on the highway, it is all done at 50mph wide open even with the shift point extended. I run around 70 mph with my trailer on the interstate and the rpms are way too high in 3rd to be in it at that speed. Mind you I am on flat land compared to you. If im in the 55mph zone ill keep it out of O/D.

Most of my towing is with my 20x8 car trailer with extended width deck. It weighs 2990 empty new. I have a 12k winch and spare added on. I only use to haul random odds and ends behind the ranger, never a car on it unless im just moving it around.

Aerodynamics is another thing at highway speed to deal with. We are literally flying bricks with 35" tires. Also tube style trans coolerers barely do anything. Your better off jamming 2 factory coolers behind the grill .

gmanpaint · October 10, 2020

Yeah, the 95 comes stock with the tube & fin. I think they changed it to the plate later on. If I can find a stacked plate cooler that is 3/4" thick, and close to the size I have now, I would most definitely install it. I just haven't come across one yet. Kind of why I was thinking of adding a 2nd cooler down low. Converters generate heat, when on or off? I always forget. lol

It would be a huge $$ gamble to install 4:88's, only to find out that it's not enough to use OD with the trailer up those steep grades. I am just scared to pull the trigger on that, and have been for years, because of what this truck has been made for. LONG ASS high speed trips across country & back. Fuel economy matters a little to me. Obviously, not a lot, because that's just part of it, and I accept it. Still, it would be nice to get what it does in OD at 2100 rpms doing 70 mph. Last months trip to CO used 270 gallons of fuel, and mostly because of running at 3000 rpms most of the time. That was an ouchy! lol 4:88 in 3rd would be way worse if I couldn't use OD.

I think the cam, headers, and engine & trans tune, is still a step in the right direction for me. It will take me a bit to accuire all those parts, then install them. Nice winter job. If that doesn't resolve this, then the 4:88's would be on the radar. Hasn't been the best work year, so a little at a time for these hobby projects, is all I can do. Heck, it's taken 12 years to get it to this point, whats one more?

boominXplorer · October 10, 2020

You want the converter to stay locked at high speeds to reduce heat. I do think 4.88s will help your situation but you will still need to drop it to 3rd on the hills. With a cam upgrade you will benefit from running 3500rpm+ to pull the grade.

boominXplorer · October 10, 2020

Way back I used to have a 01 supercrew f150 5.4 that I towed my trailer with. I had 285/75r16s (small 33s) and factory 3.55 gears. I would get better gas milage running in 3rd gear vs trying to keep it easy on it for it to stay in o/d. Basically sometimes the higher rpms make the engine work less and run more efficiently which give you better fuel economy. Don't assume rpms = fuel economy

CDW6212R · October 10, 2020

Ditto, it took for a long time to learn that the 3.73 gears were the best for the Explorers for all around fuel mileage etc, even the 1st gen's. The 3.73 of my 93 did much better on the highway then my first/91 Explorer with 3.27 gears.

You want a decent cruising rpm, but it has to have enough power at that rpm range for the given weight etc.

I'd try what you are starting with and see where that gets it. Make everything as efficient as you can reasonably before another big step. The ATF cooling you have isn't enough right now, and it could be a few things. Airflow into the coolers and radiator can be an issue, the actual coolers, the engine coolant temps, and the fan airflow, it all can contribute.

I'd hunt a better ATF cooler, either that long one from an F250 truck which Traveler got, or one of the other kind that look like a normal radiator(I have two of those big ones(would have to cut the center support to fit those kind)).

If you could lower the coolant temps, that can help the trans if it does go through the radiator. The mechanical fan is very very good, adequate for almost anything. I'm aiming my end project coolant temps to be around 170 on the high side, that will require a 160 T'stat and electric fan to control the temps in that range.

I think in the end you won't like the stock 302 shortblock power levels. You will need the 347 size, and raised compression, and a custom cam with somewhat bigger heads. I'd keep an eye out for someone on the Corral selling a 347 that has a mild other set of parts(the heads and intake and miscellaneous parts. Used engines are usually bad to buy because of the many parts they paid for, which you do not want or need.

The usage and wear are obvious issues, you never know what you are getting. Example, the 1973 Ranchero I just bought recently has an engine(351C-4V) that supposedly has $6k in it. I've seen the few receipts/notes for some engine parts, and I suspect the guy paid that for what I'd be able to do for $3k(not counting the core engine). I intended to reuse this Cleveland in the lesser Ranchero I will sell, but I can't tell others that it's a 450hp engine(I know it's not). I would love to sell the engine as it is, and the newly rebuilt C6, so I could have an excuse to build my own Cleveland like I'd want it, plus a 4R70W. I'd take $3k for them, and use it to buy a 408 Cleveland stroker kit($1550).

gmanpaint · October 10, 2020

Well, these trips are like 12 hours a day, for a couple days in a row to get to the destination. I couldn't imagine doing 3500+ for 10, 15 miles at a time, back to back for hours on end, on some of those mountains. That kinda spooks me to do that. Lol

This winter I will get the engine stuff done and try it next spring on the next big trip planned. We'll see how that goes. I'm sure it will help, how much is yet to be seen.

After that adventure, if it proves it needs more help, than the deeper gears can happen. Unless some other diabolical plan unfolds between now and then.

Unfortunately, I do not have a disposable income that allows me to just throw a ton of cash at this thing all at once. Baby steps, moderation, easy does it, one thing at a time is the best I can do.

Appreciate the help guys, I really do!!

429CJ-3X2 · October 11, 2020

I can add a couple of things here. Way back when my '74 Ranchero still had the stock 302 and original 2:73 gears, I worked in one town and banked in another town 23 miles away. I'd get off work on Friday, run through the car wash, stop at home halfway between the two towns to eat, change clothes, and wax the Ranchero. This often left me with not enough time to get to the bank before they closed without speeding. I found I actually got better mileage running 70-80 because I could hold the accelerator steady and not have to give it more gas going up the hills. The increased rpms put the engine in it's happy place where it ran more efficiently.

After the 302 drivetrain was replaced by a built 472 (bored 460) and 3.50 gears, the new engine ran hot. I experimented with various thermostats, and eventually found it ran the coolest with a 180* t-stat. The 160 thermostat was open all the time and let the coolant circulate through the radiator too fast to cool off.

Side note: stock, the 302 got 13.5 mpg. With a cam, headers, intake and 4 barrel, 13. With the stout 472 with a 4 barrel, it got 11.5 mpg, and was WAY more fun to drive (which no doubt affected the mileage)! With an Offenhauser tunnel ram and 2 4 barrels, it got about 12 mpg. The tunnel ram was the best all-around setup, but it got ditched in favor of an experimental 429 CJ 3x2 intake. The 3x2 got about the same mileage as the tunnel ram, but had more top end and a little less bottom end power - not that torque was ever a problem with 472 cubic inches!

gmanpaint · October 11, 2020

Yeah, no replacement for displacement! Lol

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