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4.0 Remote Turbo Buildup

You turbo guys probably already know this but check it out anyways....

I got this from http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/turbo_size3.php

Turbochargers 101
This article is intended to help understand the selection of a turbocharger for your car. Whether you plan to change a normally aspirated, NA, car to turbocharged or to change, upgrade the factory turbo to a bigger unit. The article assumes you have a basic automotive knowledge.

To properly size a turbo for your vehicle you need to determine the airflow requirements of the engine. The best way to determine the engine's airflow is to measure it. Unfortunately most people do not have the ability to measure it. Therefore we do the next best thing and calculate it based on estimates. This article is not a lesson in math and therefore we'll refer to using the Auto Math calculators on this site to do the work for us. SMOKEmUP has written a neat turbo calculator which will allow you to enter information about your engine. Based on these inputs the calculator will output approximate airflow requirements of your engine. Using these airflow requirements we can then take this and plot it on turbo maps to help determine the correct compressor map for your application. So lets get started.

Understanding the turbocharger compressor map. The left side of the map has a line called the surge limit line. If the compressor operates in this region the compressor becomes unstable and turbo failure may result. The two axis of the compressor map are typically pressure ratio and air flow in lbs/min. These correlate to the engines pressure ratio (how much boost you're running) and the airflow requirements of the engine, we'll let the calculator do the math for us and figure this out as explained below. The center of the map has ovals or islands as they are commonly referred too. The islands have numbers associated to them which is the efficiency of the compressor in this area. The center island is the most efficient and each outer ring has a slightly less efficiency. The goal is to place the engine's most desired RPM range in the most efficient part of the map. Typically you try to place the air flow demands so the peak RPM is at least 65% and the peak torque falls on the most efficient part of the map. This is easier said than done.

First things first we're using SMOKEmUP's Turbo Calculator. The left side of the page contains the inputs for your engine.

Engine Displacement - Engine displacement is entered in cubic inches. This is the size of your engine. If you do know the displacement you can calculate it here. For our example we'll use 122.
Engine Type - The options are two stroke, four stroke, or rotary. Most street engines are four stroke. For our example we'll use 4 stroke.
Volumetric Efficiency (%) - This number is very critical for accurate results. The bad part is most people do not know the VE of the engine without measuring it. If your engine has been on the engine dyno you'll know exactly what the VE is. Otherwise we'll use estimates. Most stock engines have VE's between 80 - 85 %. Race engines can exceed 100%. For our example we'll assume the VE is 90%.
Boost Low Octane (PSI) - Enter the boost level you plan to run on low octane gas. For our example we'll use 14psi.
Boost High Octane (PSI) - Enter the boost level you plan to run on race gas. For our example we'll use 24 psi.
Compressor Efficiency (%) - Enter the compressor efficiency from the turbo map you select. For our example we'll use 74%.
Number of Turbo's - Enter the number of turbos you plan to run. For our example we'll use single turbo.
Intercooler Efficiency (%) - Enter the intercooler efficiency. Again the best method to obtain this number is to measure and calculate it. For our example we'll use 70%.
Air Temp (°F) - Enter the intake air temperature. For our example we'll use 77 °F.
Air Fuel Ratio - Enter the desired Air Fuel ratio. This is used to aid in sizing your fuel system. For our example we'll use 11.5.

The inputs for our example are similiar to the motors used in the Mitsubishi Ecplise, and Eagle Talon. Once we enter our information in we press the calculate button and the computer does the work in calculating the engines airflow requirements, much easier than by hand. The output from the calculator looks like below.

Low Boost Results:
Pressure Ratio 1.95
Compressor Heat Added Ideal (° F) 111.88
Compressor Heat Added Actual (° F) 151.18
Compressor Inlet Air Temp (° F) 77
Compressor Outlet Air Temp (° F) 228.18
Intercooler Inlet Air Temp (° F) 228.18
Intercooler Outlet Air Temp (° F) 122.36
Density Ratio 1.8
Low Boost
RPM Total CFM Total lb/min 11.5:1 A/F
gal/hr 11.5:1 A/F
lt/hr
1000 57.2 4.24 3.69 13.97
2000 114.39 8.48 7.38 27.93
3000 171.59 12.72 11.06 41.86
4000 228.78 16.96 14.75 55.83
5000 285.98 21.2 18.44 69.8
6000 343.17 25.45 22.13 83.76
7000 400.37 29.69 25.81 97.69
8000 457.56 33.93 29.5 111.66
High Boost Results:
Pressure Ratio 2.63
Compressor Heat Added Ideal (° F) 169.13
Compressor Heat Added Actual (° F) 228.56
Compressor Inlet Air Temp (° F) 77
Compressor Outlet Air Temp (° F) 305.56
Intercooler Inlet Air Temp (° F) 305.56
Intercooler Outlet Air Temp (° F) 145.57
Density Ratio 2.33
High Boost
RPM Total CFM Total lb/min 11.5:1 A/F
gal/hr 11.5:1 A/F
lt/hr
1000 74.17 5.5 4.78 18.09
2000 148.33 11 9.56 36.18
3000 222.5 16.5 14.35 54.31
4000 296.66 22 19.13 72.41
5000 370.83 27.5 23.91 90.5
6000 445 33 28.69 108.59
7000 519.16 38.5 33.47 126.68
8000 593.33 43.99 38.26 144.81


What the calculator did for us is based on the input parameters it calculated the engines airflow requirements. Now we can take this information and select different turbo chargers to plot this information on. Again we don't want to print out a bunch of turbo maps and try to figure out where these points are on the turbo map so we let the calculator do the work for us. SMOKEmUP has a list of over 40 different turbo's you can choose. Simply select which two turbos you want to compare and press plot. The computer will plot the calculated information on the maps for you.

Since this example is based on the Mitsubishi engine we selected two turbo's. The stock 14B turbo and a Garrett T04B V1/V2. Below is the ouput from the calculator on these two compressor maps.




Ok...Now what? What you have is a plot of the engine's peak airflow requirements plotted on the turbo maps you selected. Let's look more closely at the turbo's we selected. The compressor map on the left is for the 14B turbo which comes stock on the car. The line in red is the engines airflow requirements for the engine running at the low boost level. The 1K, 2K .... through 8K points are the engine airflow at each 1000 rpm increment. You can see that at approximately 6500 rpm the airflow requirements are off the map. Now looking at the high boost plot, in blue, you'll notice the engine is off the map at approximately 6000 rpm. Also notice that the plot shows the turbo is performing outside of the peak efficiency of the turbo. In general Mitsubishi did a good job in sizing this turbo for the application.


So your friend has this big Garrett turbo that he'll sell to you for cheap money and it supports making much more power than your wimpy 14B turbo. So you buy the turbo get all the parts to swap for the Garrett conversion. You take the car for a ride and it's a dog below 5500 rpm. Let's see why. Now looking at the Garrett turbo map you'll see that the engine at 4K rpm is below the surge line on the map (not good). Since most of the usable power band is below the surge line this turbo is not a good choice for your vehicle.

Summary:
The goal of selecting a turbo is to select a turbo where the most amount of usable RPM band for the engine falls on the most efficient part of the turbo map.
 


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rocket 5979

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I've thought of several ways of doing it. But you know me, I've switched back and forth a million times already. (come up from the drivers side....wait, come up from the passengers side....wait, that's more bends...okay, screw it, come up thru the windshield.....;) (Joke)

I thought I had one size smaller than James, but when you actually have the thing in your hands, you start re-thinking everything.

I may have to relocate the stock tranny cooler and cut a couple brackets out of the ways, but like I said, there's several ways to do it.



I had to relocate a thing or two to mount my FMIC in the LS also. Once they were out of the way it fit like a glove.
 


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rocket 5979

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Purdy turbo ya got there. :D


I think that FMIC should do you well. For a cheap Ebay store CXRacing has some really good deals on pretty decent stuff. My FMIC, intake tubing, connectors, and t-bolt clamps came from them.
 




rocket 5979

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Thanks.

Look at how bad of an influence you are. (Robert and James). This is my neighbors project I was telling you about. Since I started on this, he caught the fever too.

View attachment 44049

View attachment 44050



Jeeze, you know you truly are a bad influence when the person you were the bad influence on has become a bad influence for others! Hehe

Jake, is that a 3.0 Vulcan engine by chance?
 




rocket 5979

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Nope - It's a built chevy 4.3. The compression is a little high for a turbo but he's gonna yank it and put some lower compression forged pistons in after the mock up. He sized the turbo along with my help. We're so confident in the size that he bought the least expensive turbo to see if it works out? hehehe

This motor use to run nitrous so this is all new to him.

But yes, I talked him into the turbo.




Wow, I used to own a 4.3 vehicle and I guess i forgot how small the engine was. No front dress really makes it look tiny. What CR does that 4.3 have currently?




Jake, you are evil. Causing that man to spend extra money on a turbo.
 




rocket 5979

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10: to something. Can't remember. I think he can boost it just a little like it is but there's no room for tuning errors.

He's gonna mock up the turbo and pull the motor back out. Heck, he started after me and will probably be done before I will. Yesterday, he had the intercooler in with some of the piping ran.



I'm glad I got a post in this thread Robert....I was thinking about killing it cuss it seemed dead to me.



If that is a built engine then he can run a decent amount of boost with a solid tune. My LS is 10.75:1 CR and I plan to push 6-7 psi with a rock solid tune.

No need to kill a thread that hasn't seen more than 2-3 days inactivity before new posts. Also it is getting to be Christmas time so things are expected to slow a bit on the forums.
 








rocket 5979

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Yeah, it's slow and it bugs me, but it's more along the lines of me not being able to spend any time working on the new set-up.



It happens Jakee. People who do not see a person's daily schedule will always attempt to hold them to artificially high standards of completion. You have other things to do besides that turbo project right now. Focus on those and in due time you will be in the position to put full effort toward the truck. The only reason I did the LS turbo proto project in that quick a time is because I am no stranger to custom builds and am obsessive when it comes to finishing a much anticipated project. The second trait being one that can be good while also having its downfalls. When you wake up at 4 am making custom fuel systems in your head then it just goes too far. hehe
 




rocket 5979

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The more obsessing you do up front, the less screw-ups you have to fix in the future.


There I fixed it. ;) What can I say, I am a stickler for the details. :thumbsup:
 




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Remember to take pics of the build Jake.
 




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Will do.

So far, the only minor work I had to do in order to fit the IC, is to remove the two brackets that hold the tow hooks. Unfortunately, they're welded in place, and it takes awhile grinding and chiseling to get them out. Once that was done, it fit up in there like it came from the factory with a IC. There will be three removable sections, and the rest of the aluminum pipe will be welded. I'll get some pics posted once I get the cold side piping done.


Did you already hang the turbo?


Tell your neighbor to become a member here and post his build progress too.
 




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No, haven't hung the turbo. I'm gonna run all the cold side (IC and piping right up to the turbo), have him weld the piping I need, (I'll just scribe a line in the two pcs, and drop it off for welding), then it's going to Dads. He's going to hang the turbo and finish the exhaust for me.

I've got to start making plans to get James up here because when I add the MAF and injectors, I'll be ITCHING to drive the thing.

My neighbor is joined at the turboforums. I'll see if I can get him over here. He's been on me about going to the track with the truck like it is. He thinks I under-estimate my truck in the N/A state but I honestly don't think it's all that, and so; here I am turboing the thing.

When you get your tune file from James you will be able to drive it. You'll just have to keep off the loud pedal. But I am sure he will take alot of timing out of so you can't blow it up :)

I am planning on moving my turbo closer to the front when I redo mine. I was going to upgrade my compressor, but I am leaning towards just putting a T70 on it. This seems to be the "magic" turbo for the 5.0's.. and wont be much more than paying for the machine work needed for the upgraded Holset compressor. I have a new turbo project coming soon, and I can use my Holset for it. Here is a hint; it is a 4.6 V8, but it isnt a Ford engine ;)
 




rocket 5979

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have him weld the piping I need, (I'll just scribe a line in the two pcs, and drop it off for welding), then it's going to Dads. He's going to hang the turbo and finish the exhaust for me.



Then what are you doing? You are letting your dad have all the fun. Grab that stinger away from him and lay some beads down.



Here is a hint; it is a 4.6 V8, but it isnt a Ford engine ;)




Is that a FWD???? Cadillac hey?
 




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Is that a FWD???? Cadillac hey?

Good guess, but no. Here is another hint; the engine was originally designed by GM (Buick) in the 1960's.
 




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Welding is not my thing. I can weld steal, but aluminum? hell no. I burn thru it in a new York second. I'm actually a machinist, and If I had a lathe and mill, I'd be making more of my parts, and probably everyone else's. O well, someday maybe.

Justin - Stay tuned. You will see a STS remote mount, mounted close to the engine.



I was referring more to the exhaust than the intake tubing.

I didn't notice you were a machinist. You do CNC, manual, both? I plan to build a CNC mill here eventually. Very handy for various custom parts.
 




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Keep pushing the ideas Jake, Justin, Rob. I'm watching, as I see how little room is under the hood, the space under the truck looks inviting. I'll see about what is left after I change transfer cases, and rebuild my cat pipes.

Justin, where exactly are you thinking of locating a turbo, or two? I'm interested in seeing what is available right after the cats, the torsion bars. The space from there back to the rear end is long enough for huge mufflers. How much actual space is needed for the turbo arrangement? I also wonder about an intercooler, do you have one now? That would be mandatory, but how to do that is an issue. Plumbing pipes forward to the radiator past the suspension would be hard to do. Regards,
 




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Keep pushing the ideas Jake, Justin, Rob. I'm watching, as I see how little room is under the hood, the space under the truck looks inviting. I'll see about what is left after I change transfer cases, and rebuild my cat pipes.

Justin, where exactly are you thinking of locating a turbo, or two? I'm interested in seeing what is available right after the cats, the torsion bars. The space from there back to the rear end is long enough for huge mufflers. How much actual space is needed for the turbo arrangement? I also wonder about an intercooler, do you have one now? That would be mandatory, but how to do that is an issue. Plumbing pipes forward to the radiator past the suspension would be hard to do. Regards,



Don the space needed for a turbo arrangement will depend on what turbo or turbo's you plan to go with and how you plan to orient it.

Running your intake piping forward of the front suspension is not going to be a problem. If I did it in my LS that is about a foot lower to the ground then you can easily do it with your X. I do not understand why you guys have that idea crammed so far into your heads. It is just not the case. It is 2" piping that you have to run to the front. That is pretty small and easily routed in some very tight spaces.
 




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I haven't done any researching yet on turbo systems, is it really only 2" pipe coming back up front? I would have expected it to be a 2.5" or 3" in size.
 




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I haven't done any researching yet on turbo systems, is it really only 2" pipe coming back up front? I would have expected it to be a 2.5" or 3" in size.



The size of the intake piping coming from the remote turbo to the FMIC will depend on what the diameter of the compressor outlet is. In your case you will likely be running a 60-1 turbo which will have a 2" exit size. Due to the intake charge being pressurized you can get away with a smaller charge pipe coming forward off the turbo compressor. This allows slightly faster boost response because there is less volume to fill before the compressed air hits the intake manifold. As long as you only transition to larger sizes in intake piping and do not go up one size and then down again then you will not have any flow problems.

Now when you are coming back off the FMIC then you will want to start stepping the charge pipe up to the proper size to make a smooth transition into the MAF and then into the TB.
 




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Don - It can sound intimidating at first, but honestly it is very EASY.

When you break it all down to its common form you are running some piping from one place to another, and then another set of piping from one place to another and that is about the hardest part. If a person does not know how to weld well then that can pose a problem but that is it.
 


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Duct tape, I hate that crap, it does not last long outdoors(spotlight hole, Crown Vic). I'm game, I look under the hood and wonder occasionally where the KB would fit.
 




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