• Register Today It's free! This box and some ads will disappear once registered!

4.0 Remote Turbo Buildup

You turbo guys probably already know this but check it out anyways....

I got this from http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/turbo_size3.php

Turbochargers 101
This article is intended to help understand the selection of a turbocharger for your car. Whether you plan to change a normally aspirated, NA, car to turbocharged or to change, upgrade the factory turbo to a bigger unit. The article assumes you have a basic automotive knowledge.

To properly size a turbo for your vehicle you need to determine the airflow requirements of the engine. The best way to determine the engine's airflow is to measure it. Unfortunately most people do not have the ability to measure it. Therefore we do the next best thing and calculate it based on estimates. This article is not a lesson in math and therefore we'll refer to using the Auto Math calculators on this site to do the work for us. SMOKEmUP has written a neat turbo calculator which will allow you to enter information about your engine. Based on these inputs the calculator will output approximate airflow requirements of your engine. Using these airflow requirements we can then take this and plot it on turbo maps to help determine the correct compressor map for your application. So lets get started.

Understanding the turbocharger compressor map. The left side of the map has a line called the surge limit line. If the compressor operates in this region the compressor becomes unstable and turbo failure may result. The two axis of the compressor map are typically pressure ratio and air flow in lbs/min. These correlate to the engines pressure ratio (how much boost you're running) and the airflow requirements of the engine, we'll let the calculator do the math for us and figure this out as explained below. The center of the map has ovals or islands as they are commonly referred too. The islands have numbers associated to them which is the efficiency of the compressor in this area. The center island is the most efficient and each outer ring has a slightly less efficiency. The goal is to place the engine's most desired RPM range in the most efficient part of the map. Typically you try to place the air flow demands so the peak RPM is at least 65% and the peak torque falls on the most efficient part of the map. This is easier said than done.

First things first we're using SMOKEmUP's Turbo Calculator. The left side of the page contains the inputs for your engine.

Engine Displacement - Engine displacement is entered in cubic inches. This is the size of your engine. If you do know the displacement you can calculate it here. For our example we'll use 122.
Engine Type - The options are two stroke, four stroke, or rotary. Most street engines are four stroke. For our example we'll use 4 stroke.
Volumetric Efficiency (%) - This number is very critical for accurate results. The bad part is most people do not know the VE of the engine without measuring it. If your engine has been on the engine dyno you'll know exactly what the VE is. Otherwise we'll use estimates. Most stock engines have VE's between 80 - 85 %. Race engines can exceed 100%. For our example we'll assume the VE is 90%.
Boost Low Octane (PSI) - Enter the boost level you plan to run on low octane gas. For our example we'll use 14psi.
Boost High Octane (PSI) - Enter the boost level you plan to run on race gas. For our example we'll use 24 psi.
Compressor Efficiency (%) - Enter the compressor efficiency from the turbo map you select. For our example we'll use 74%.
Number of Turbo's - Enter the number of turbos you plan to run. For our example we'll use single turbo.
Intercooler Efficiency (%) - Enter the intercooler efficiency. Again the best method to obtain this number is to measure and calculate it. For our example we'll use 70%.
Air Temp (°F) - Enter the intake air temperature. For our example we'll use 77 °F.
Air Fuel Ratio - Enter the desired Air Fuel ratio. This is used to aid in sizing your fuel system. For our example we'll use 11.5.

The inputs for our example are similiar to the motors used in the Mitsubishi Ecplise, and Eagle Talon. Once we enter our information in we press the calculate button and the computer does the work in calculating the engines airflow requirements, much easier than by hand. The output from the calculator looks like below.

Low Boost Results:
Pressure Ratio 1.95
Compressor Heat Added Ideal (° F) 111.88
Compressor Heat Added Actual (° F) 151.18
Compressor Inlet Air Temp (° F) 77
Compressor Outlet Air Temp (° F) 228.18
Intercooler Inlet Air Temp (° F) 228.18
Intercooler Outlet Air Temp (° F) 122.36
Density Ratio 1.8
Low Boost
RPM Total CFM Total lb/min 11.5:1 A/F
gal/hr 11.5:1 A/F
lt/hr
1000 57.2 4.24 3.69 13.97
2000 114.39 8.48 7.38 27.93
3000 171.59 12.72 11.06 41.86
4000 228.78 16.96 14.75 55.83
5000 285.98 21.2 18.44 69.8
6000 343.17 25.45 22.13 83.76
7000 400.37 29.69 25.81 97.69
8000 457.56 33.93 29.5 111.66
High Boost Results:
Pressure Ratio 2.63
Compressor Heat Added Ideal (° F) 169.13
Compressor Heat Added Actual (° F) 228.56
Compressor Inlet Air Temp (° F) 77
Compressor Outlet Air Temp (° F) 305.56
Intercooler Inlet Air Temp (° F) 305.56
Intercooler Outlet Air Temp (° F) 145.57
Density Ratio 2.33
High Boost
RPM Total CFM Total lb/min 11.5:1 A/F
gal/hr 11.5:1 A/F
lt/hr
1000 74.17 5.5 4.78 18.09
2000 148.33 11 9.56 36.18
3000 222.5 16.5 14.35 54.31
4000 296.66 22 19.13 72.41
5000 370.83 27.5 23.91 90.5
6000 445 33 28.69 108.59
7000 519.16 38.5 33.47 126.68
8000 593.33 43.99 38.26 144.81


What the calculator did for us is based on the input parameters it calculated the engines airflow requirements. Now we can take this information and select different turbo chargers to plot this information on. Again we don't want to print out a bunch of turbo maps and try to figure out where these points are on the turbo map so we let the calculator do the work for us. SMOKEmUP has a list of over 40 different turbo's you can choose. Simply select which two turbos you want to compare and press plot. The computer will plot the calculated information on the maps for you.

Since this example is based on the Mitsubishi engine we selected two turbo's. The stock 14B turbo and a Garrett T04B V1/V2. Below is the ouput from the calculator on these two compressor maps.




Ok...Now what? What you have is a plot of the engine's peak airflow requirements plotted on the turbo maps you selected. Let's look more closely at the turbo's we selected. The compressor map on the left is for the 14B turbo which comes stock on the car. The line in red is the engines airflow requirements for the engine running at the low boost level. The 1K, 2K .... through 8K points are the engine airflow at each 1000 rpm increment. You can see that at approximately 6500 rpm the airflow requirements are off the map. Now looking at the high boost plot, in blue, you'll notice the engine is off the map at approximately 6000 rpm. Also notice that the plot shows the turbo is performing outside of the peak efficiency of the turbo. In general Mitsubishi did a good job in sizing this turbo for the application.


So your friend has this big Garrett turbo that he'll sell to you for cheap money and it supports making much more power than your wimpy 14B turbo. So you buy the turbo get all the parts to swap for the Garrett conversion. You take the car for a ride and it's a dog below 5500 rpm. Let's see why. Now looking at the Garrett turbo map you'll see that the engine at 4K rpm is below the surge line on the map (not good). Since most of the usable power band is below the surge line this turbo is not a good choice for your vehicle.

Summary:
The goal of selecting a turbo is to select a turbo where the most amount of usable RPM band for the engine falls on the most efficient part of the turbo map.
 


Join the Elite Explorers for $20 per year. Gets rid of the ads! New $5 per month "try out" option.

Explorer Forum has probably saved you that much already, and will continue to save you money as you learn how to diagnose fix problems yourself and learn which modifications work without having to experiment on your own. Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links, can add their own profile photo, upload photo attachments in all forums, and Media Gallery, create and save more private Conversations, and more. Join Today. Your support is greatly appreciated.




rocket 5979

Resident Gearhead
Joined
April 22, 2002
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
4
City, State
Lake Villa, Illinois
Year, Model & Trim Level
'03 XLT 4.6
I think that would be on top of the motor? Unless, ofcourse, you'll be doing a remote mount KB? hehe




Run it off the driveshaft.
 


Join the Elite Explorers for $20 per year. Gets rid of the ads! New $5 per month "try out" option.

Explorer Forum has probably saved you that much already, and will continue to save you money as you learn how to diagnose fix problems yourself and learn which modifications work without having to experiment on your own. Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links, can add their own profile photo, upload photo attachments in all forums, and Media Gallery, create and save more private Conversations, and more. Join Today. Your support is greatly appreciated.




V8RangerBoy

Active Member
Joined
October 2, 2007
Messages
50
Reaction score
0
City, State
Boise, ID
Year, Model & Trim Level
'94 Ranger 5.0
Running your intake piping forward of the front suspension is not going to be a problem. If I did it in my LS that is about a foot lower to the ground then you can easily do it with your X. I do not understand why you guys have that idea crammed so far into your heads. It is just not the case. It is 2" piping that you have to run to the front. That is pretty small and easily routed in some very tight spaces.

True story. My spool outlet sits basically in the frame inside of the C shape of the frame, and the 2" tubing just follows the frame all the way forward until cab meets engine bay. After that it turns up and follows the cab line up into the engine bay, and turns into 3" along the way. Arranging the bends how I wanted them was a little difficult, but there's really not THAT much work involved in doing it. It's more planning and marking that actual fab'ing.
 




rocket 5979

Resident Gearhead
Joined
April 22, 2002
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
4
City, State
Lake Villa, Illinois
Year, Model & Trim Level
'03 XLT 4.6
but there's really not THAT much work involved in doing it. It's more planning and marking that actual fab'ing.


Measure twice so that you only have to cut and weld once. ;)

I need another custom turbo project; the holidays are getting boring. There is only so much turkey and beans that you can eat...
 




red82gt

Active Member
Joined
September 5, 2006
Messages
65
Reaction score
0
City, State
Kelowna
Year, Model & Trim Level
2020 Explorer ST
Great thread guys!

I've been contemplating building something similar for my 2002 4.6L. Since the re-sale value of it is kinda hurting and me being a mustang guy that still has faith in the 2v 4.6, it is looking more and more like a good Idea.
I have access to Holset HX35's to no end, a whole bunch of 2 1/4" 16 ga tubing with several complex mandrel bends, a metal chop saw, and a mig welder. Money isn't a problem but I'd rather do it myself for the fun of it as I'm an avid drag racer (time permitting) and build my own engines, rear ends, etc...but I've never stepped into the world of power adders.
The biggest factor is the time...I'll need to get a solid plan and get my parts list as complete as possible.
My plan is also to do a remote mount with the turbo after the resonator (or is it a converter?) where the stock muffler is.
I still need to decide if I want to go intercooled, and to go blow-thru or draw-thru with the maf.
I've still got a lot to learn and this thread has definitely given me the confidence that with some help, it can be done.
Sorry if it seems like I'm hijacking the thread but really I just feel as if I'm paying homage to Jakee and the others on this board for stepping up and building their own systems!
Good Luck Guys!
 




V8RangerBoy

Active Member
Joined
October 2, 2007
Messages
50
Reaction score
0
City, State
Boise, ID
Year, Model & Trim Level
'94 Ranger 5.0
Thanks!

It sounds like you have a good start going.

A lot of people don't like mounting the turbo behind the cat converter because of the fear of the converters insides breaking up and running thru the turbo. Mine will actually be mounted really close to the y-pipe so if I decided to run a cat after the turbo, I could without the fear of screwing the turbo up. More than likely, I will not run a converter at all. Running a converter N/A really doesn’t mess with the potential power output of the engine, but running a converter with a power adder does represent a bottleneck.

Yep, I ended up cutting out all my cat's in my pickup as well. To leave them in there, #1 it's just that much more restrictive, #2, they absorb that much more exhaust heat, and #3, it's no loss of performance by the computer NOT seeing it.
 




V8RangerBoy

Active Member
Joined
October 2, 2007
Messages
50
Reaction score
0
City, State
Boise, ID
Year, Model & Trim Level
'94 Ranger 5.0
My plan is also to do a remote mount with the turbo after the resonator (or is it a converter?) where the stock muffler is.

Probably want to either take them out or move them behind the turbo, for above reasons.
I still need to decide if I want to go intercooled, and to go blow-thru or draw-thru with the maf.
Remote systems typically don't require an intercooler unless you are running alot of boost or excessively high intake air temps. Draw through setups are generally more repeatable accuracy-wise; you just have to figure in on how you will route the blow-off valve to blow back into the intake after the MAF. Blow-thru's are by no means a BAD option, and are simpler to setup.
I've still got a lot to learn and this thread has definitely given me the confidence that with some help, it can be done.
Read around as you have time. There's tons of information in this forum and many others as well. turbomustangs.com is another great spot to snoop around. If you can't find the specific information that you want, ask. Rocket and James have priceless knowledge to share! :p:
 




Turdle

Lowrider
Staff member
Moderator
Elite Explorer
Joined
June 16, 2003
Messages
29,584
Reaction score
1,114
City, State
Humboldt, KS
Year, Model & Trim Level
2000 Mounty
This makes me think about those BOV's that can be made to recirculate back into the intake. How in the heck does this work? I can't see how this relieves pressure when it's blowing air back into the intake? What am I missing?
It gets directed to upstream of the compressor if I remember correctly.
 




V8RangerBoy

Active Member
Joined
October 2, 2007
Messages
50
Reaction score
0
City, State
Boise, ID
Year, Model & Trim Level
'94 Ranger 5.0
It gets directed to upstream of the compressor if I remember correctly.

Right - sorry. By intake I meant (like my case) the intake TUBE, which is the filtered pre-compressor unpressured intake side, not the charge side. A setup like Justin's with the filter put right onto the turbo would have to be different.
 




V8RangerBoy

Active Member
Joined
October 2, 2007
Messages
50
Reaction score
0
City, State
Boise, ID
Year, Model & Trim Level
'94 Ranger 5.0
I'm actually doing a Blow-thru so the BOV on mine is before the MAF on the charge side. This allows me to vent to the atmosphere.

Nevermind, I remember Rocket explaining the other way to me. You vent from the charge side to the intake side.

EDIT - I found the thread I was talking about but the guy is actually going from the charge side to the intake side, so it wasn't what I thought.

Yeah. BOV after the MAF would be bad, bad news! ;)
 




jah81592

Explorer Addict
Joined
June 12, 2005
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
20
City, State
Corner, AL
Year, Model & Trim Level
2001 Explorer Sport
You can run a BOV vented to atmosphere, after the MAF meter. This is the way Hellion turbo kits does it and I will in my setup as well. This will add about an hour to the tuning but it can be done without adverse driveability problems. I have several customers which have the BOV post MAF and they don't report any problems at all. For Jake, I recommend running a draw thru setup but it is his combination and his decision for MAF placement. There are pro's and con's to both setups. The biggest con to the draw thru setup is that you have to lengthen your MAF wiring. This really gets people nervous. Otherwise keep on chipping at the stone. :thumbsup:
 




rocket 5979

Resident Gearhead
Joined
April 22, 2002
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
4
City, State
Lake Villa, Illinois
Year, Model & Trim Level
'03 XLT 4.6
You can run a BOV vented to atmosphere, after the MAF meter. This is the way Hellion turbo kits does it and I will in my setup as well. This will add about an hour to the tuning but it can be done without adverse driveability problems. I have several customers which have the BOV post MAF and they don't report any problems at all. For Jake, I recommend running a draw thru setup but it is his combination and his decision for MAF placement. There are pro's and con's to both setups. The biggest con to the draw thru setup is that you have to lengthen your MAF wiring. This really gets people nervous. Otherwise keep on chipping at the stone. :thumbsup:



There are pro's and con's to both blow and draw through. If blowthrough is setup correctly I have seen it not have any adverse affects on the metering ability of a MAFS and drivability will not suffer either. However, as we all know, blowthrough is harder to setup properly which is where the hitch comes in. People do not set their blowthrough system up properly and then blame their MAF signal getting all screwy on blowthrough systems in general which is not the case. Whenever I setup a turbo system with a BOV planned in the near future I plan to run blowthrough and just ensure it is setup properly. There are many more pro's & con's that could be mentioned for both setups but I have the day off and do not feel like blabbing all day on here. Different ways to skin that cat I guess. :salute:
 




V8RangerBoy

Active Member
Joined
October 2, 2007
Messages
50
Reaction score
0
City, State
Boise, ID
Year, Model & Trim Level
'94 Ranger 5.0
You can run a BOV vented to atmosphere, after the MAF meter. This is the way Hellion turbo kits does it and I will in my setup as well. This will add about an hour to the tuning but it can be done without adverse driveability problems. I have several customers which have the BOV post MAF and they don't report any problems at all. For Jake, I recommend running a draw thru setup but it is his combination and his decision for MAF placement. There are pro's and con's to both setups. The biggest con to the draw thru setup is that you have to lengthen your MAF wiring. This really gets people nervous. Otherwise keep on chipping at the stone. :thumbsup:

Strange. Blowing off metered air not causing a problem comes out wrong in my head any way I think of it :D
 




red82gt

Active Member
Joined
September 5, 2006
Messages
65
Reaction score
0
City, State
Kelowna
Year, Model & Trim Level
2020 Explorer ST
Is it as simple as splicing in more length of wire when relocating the MAF?
If I were to vent the bypass to the inlet before the turbocharger and after the MAF is there a minimum distance that it should be done past the Maf? I could picture giving a pretty turbulent blast to the incoming air if you were to put the bypass back in too close to the MAF.
I would think that if you vented the bypass to the environment, you'd likely just get a momentarily rich condition and I really couldn't see it causing that much havoc unless you are constantly having it pop off at part throttle. Someone with experience in the biz want to correct me-or show me the way? Does the EEC V adjust the A/F with the O2 sensors at WOT?
 




rocket 5979

Resident Gearhead
Joined
April 22, 2002
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
4
City, State
Lake Villa, Illinois
Year, Model & Trim Level
'03 XLT 4.6
Is it as simple as splicing in more length of wire when relocating the MAF?
If I were to vent the bypass to the inlet before the turbocharger and after the MAF is there a minimum distance that it should be done past the Maf? I could picture giving a pretty turbulent blast to the incoming air if you were to put the bypass back in too close to the MAF.
I would think that if you vented the bypass to the environment, you'd likely just get a momentarily rich condition and I really couldn't see it causing that much havoc unless you are constantly having it pop off at part throttle. Someone with experience in the biz want to correct me-or show me the way? Does the EEC V adjust the A/F with the O2 sensors at WOT?





Well of course the manifold volume will need to be changed in the tuning to reflect the further distance that the MAF is placed.

You thinking on the re-entry point of the boost bypass in a drawthrough MAF configuration is correct. It is VERY critical where you place the bypass re-entry. Like you said, you will not want to place it anywhere close to the MAF because it could cause a backwash of turbulence into the MAF really screwing with the signal.

If you do run your BOV to vent to atmosphere in a drawthrough MAF system and the tune is not specially modified for that then you will run into a momentary extreme rich condition and the car will usually die. There is tuning that can be done that will iron this problem out. Keep in mind that it is not in the MAF Transfer Function where this place will be taking place.

At WOT you are likely in open loop with most vehicles (barring some trucks) Your PCM will be pulling its data from the MAFS to determine airload and base fueling on that. The O2's are for when in closed loop at warm idle and part throttle driving.
 




jah81592

Explorer Addict
Joined
June 12, 2005
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
20
City, State
Corner, AL
Year, Model & Trim Level
2001 Explorer Sport
Is it as simple as splicing in more length of wire when relocating the MAF?
If I were to vent the bypass to the inlet before the turbocharger and after the MAF is there a minimum distance that it should be done past the Maf? I could picture giving a pretty turbulent blast to the incoming air if you were to put the bypass back in too close to the MAF.
I would think that if you vented the bypass to the environment, you'd likely just get a momentarily rich condition and I really couldn't see it causing that much havoc unless you are constantly having it pop off at part throttle. Someone with experience in the biz want to correct me-or show me the way? Does the EEC V adjust the A/F with the O2 sensors at WOT?

You are right. There will only be a momentary rich condition. The bov doesn't bypass all the time. So the only time you will see this momentary condition is when the valve is bypassed which is only for a second at the most. I can tune around this, the rich condition is not eliminated but only reduced. I am not anti blow thru, I plan to also end up running a blow thru maf meter, eventually. And no the MAF is what commands the a/f at wot not the o2 sensors. As stated above, the o2 sensors are only for commanding stoich.
 




CDW6212R

Hauls the mail.
Elite Explorer
Joined
June 17, 2004
Messages
21,054
Reaction score
1,872
City, State
Knoxville, TN
Year, Model & Trim Level
98 Limited AWD
That's the same as that alumiloy TV infomercial stuff, I got some but haven't tried it yet.
 




jah81592

Explorer Addict
Joined
June 12, 2005
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
20
City, State
Corner, AL
Year, Model & Trim Level
2001 Explorer Sport
And on the other hand, the momentary rich condition will be when the throttle blade is shut, so there shouldn't be load on the engine. However, even with this, I still don't like it.

Even with a blow thru system and under boost you will still have a momentary condition,not as much but still present. If it is tuned properly you (the end user) won't even be able to tell that there is a rich condition. You won't smell it or even see it. It isn't like it is blowing off a massive amount of air anyway. Yes the air is metered but there are tables for lost compensation anyway.-j
 




rocket 5979

Resident Gearhead
Joined
April 22, 2002
Messages
4,026
Reaction score
4
City, State
Lake Villa, Illinois
Year, Model & Trim Level
'03 XLT 4.6
How are things coming along Jake? Pictures?
 




CDW6212R

Hauls the mail.
Elite Explorer
Joined
June 17, 2004
Messages
21,054
Reaction score
1,872
City, State
Knoxville, TN
Year, Model & Trim Level
98 Limited AWD
Very good, nice progress. I like the lower valance grille, it matches fine.
 


Join the Elite Explorers for $20 per year. Gets rid of the ads! New $5 per month "try out" option.

Explorer Forum has probably saved you that much already, and will continue to save you money as you learn how to diagnose fix problems yourself and learn which modifications work without having to experiment on your own. Elite Explorer members see no advertisements, no banner ads, no double underlined links, can add their own profile photo, upload photo attachments in all forums, and Media Gallery, create and save more private Conversations, and more. Join Today. Your support is greatly appreciated.




justin146

Explorer Addict
Joined
April 8, 2001
Messages
2,213
Reaction score
0
City, State
Oxford, MS-- home of the Ole Miss Rebels
Year, Model & Trim Level
2000 XLT Sport 5.0 Turbo
Its looking good so far. I was going to copy what you did on the FMIC, but hopefully my truck will be sold in about 5 days (It's on ebay)
 




Top