Justin is going twin turbo...

[rocket 5979]

If I am going to spend the time doing a swap it will be well worth it.

My thoughts exactly. If you are going to put in the wrench time then why not invest a tad more to achieve much bigger gains.

 

[CDW6212R]

I do not suggest using a distributor and changing the operating system. If a 351W was a good swap then I would make a CMP(as I mentioned), and stroke that to a 408-418 etc.

The 302 based engine will outrun a 351W based engine given the same displacement. The 302 parts are lighter and will accelerate quicker. You can build a 357 for only a little more than a 347. There are 3.47" cranks now commonly, offset ground that to a smaller bearing, and you are looking at 357ci.

The internal engine parts available now are much better than what you could come up with 20 years ago. I know that for similar money with a 351W you can add another 50ci. easily, but the headache of the external swap parts is not worth it.

I think you should be able to make enough power with a 302 based engine to break parts, that you also can with a 351W. If you go with the proper block(Dart), assembly, heads and cam, you should be able to run any boost that you plan for. For that kind of horsepower any engine(351W based) should have the same level of parts, thus a similar cost. So why run 15psi in a 351W when you can do 20psi with a 302 and accomplish the same thing? Regards,

 

[rocket 5979]

I know that for similar money with a 351W you can add another 50ci. easily, but the headache of the external swap parts is not worth it.

This is a matter of opinion...

I think you should be able to make enough power with a 302 based engine to break parts, that you also can with a 351W.

Matter of opinion... To some people 700hp is allot. To others it isn't. "enough power" is VERY relative.

So why run 15psi in a 351W when you can do 20psi with a 302 and accomplish the same thing? Regards,

In a turbocharged application it is simple. Power under the curve. You will have more power under the curve, before boost, with a built 408 than with a built 347 (or 357). That means getting off the line quicker, better 60' and so on. Yes you could use a transbrake to just stall higher till boost is achieved but then you are opening another can of worms too. While running less boost the fuel system will be more efficient too.

 

[CDW6212R]

The bench racing can go on forever. If the goal is to create as much hard work and fabricating as possible, then just buy a Lightning engine and swap all of that.

IMO, it doesn't make much sense to purposely select an engine swap that does not fit without massive fabrication and custom parts.

The 302 fits, what's wrong with 700hp from a turbocharged 347? Somewhere along the line the mild SUV characteristics got lost in such a project. If you go that far, than you might as well get a 4000rpm TC, make it 25psi of boost or more, and see how long the trans etc. will last.

I believe two main points are vital here. First this isn't a 3000 pound Mustang and is not for racing them. Lastly the 302 engines can make more than enough power for 99% of all SUV needs.

 

[Jakee]

I'm getting ready to take mine to the track - I'm gonna suprise a few people in here.

































or blow my truck up trying.

 

[rocket 5979]

The bench racing can go on forever. If the goal is to create as much hard work and fabricating as possible, then just buy a Lightning engine and swap all of that.

IMO, it doesn't make much sense to purposely select an engine swap that does not fit without massive fabrication and custom parts.

The 302 fits, what's wrong with 700hp from a turbocharged 347? Somewhere along the line the mild SUV characteristics got lost in such a project. If you go that far, than you might as well get a 4000rpm TC, make it 25psi of boost or more, and see how long the trans etc. will last.

I believe two main points are vital here. First this isn't a 3000 pound Mustang and is not for racing them. Lastly the 302 engines can make more than enough power for 99% of all SUV needs.

Don I hate to say it because you have always been a nice guy but you are the one that is bench racing in here. Have you ever built a 347??? What about a 408??? Have you ever built a turbo system for either engine platform, or driven one after to see the power of it? Have you ever driven a 700hp car...what about a 1,000+ hp big ci + turbo vehicle to compare the difference??? I am sorry man but until you do then all you are operating off of is forum research and presumptions man.

Remember that just because you cannot see the point in something doesn't mean that it is automatically not worth it to others that are more ambitious. I personally do not see the point in boosting the hell out of a Honda Civic but you will never find me questioning why the other guys do it.

 

[CDW6212R]

Robert there's nothing wrong with this back and forth of ideas. There does not need to be a winner, or a person who puts all others in their place because they are all wrong.

I have commented based on the ideas tossed about by Justin and James. I know that they have spoken and I see that they may be headed towards bigger things.

I have spent a lot of time learning about my two 2nd gen. trucks. For the kind of power hinted at in this thread, a larger physically engine is not needed. If the goal is just to be difficult, then it should be said up front. My goal is the performance, not for show or to brag about how different my truck is.

I'll leave it at that, my comments were to help anyone to see what may be the best way to reach their goals. Regards,

 

[Jakee]

Don - That was very well said.

 

[rocket 5979]

Robert there's nothing wrong with this back and forth of ideas. There does not need to be a winner, or a person who puts all others in their place because they are all wrong.

I have commented based on the ideas tossed about by Justin and James. I know that they have spoken and I see that they may be headed towards bigger things.

I have spent a lot of time learning about my two 2nd gen. trucks. For the kind of power hinted at in this thread, a larger physically engine is not needed. If the goal is just to be difficult, then it should be said up front. My goal is the performance, not for show or to brag about how different my truck is.

I'll leave it at that, my comments were to help anyone to see what may be the best way to reach their goals. Regards,

The talk:
Don, I like a regular back and forth of ideas here as well. The key being back and forth... However, what seemed to be the factor that didn't sit well was when you tried to label what myself or others said as "bench racing". We were doing the same thing you were doing which was stating our approach or thoughts. Statements such as the one you made are not needed and don't lend to the constructiveness of this thread.

If you prefer to achieve your power goals with a 302 based engine then that is fine and I am not here to try to change that; never was. However, you were trying to push the issue with others in here. It seemed to me that you were almost offended at the thought of someone trying to go for more power in a 351 based combo versus a 302 one. As I said in my previous post bro, just because you cannot see the point in something doesn't mean it should be that way for all others. It is fine to be proud of your approach in using a 302 based engine but don't start making unnecessary comments when someone wants to do something different from you. Try to be a little more open minded. If someone wants to use a 351 based engine and make gobs more power, although with much more work, then that is their prerogative.


The tech:
I have seen people running turbocharged 408's getting some HUGE power. Some may think that is excessive for a Explorer. Some others may still think that is excessive for any vehicle in general. My opinion is why not make more power if that is what you want assuming the vehicle is built to hold it? There will be extra work involved but there will also be extra reward too. That extra 50ci will make a good difference in performance when not in boost. Extra engine life due to lower cylinder pressures... If a person were wanting to do a twin screw blower then that extra displacement wouldn't be as necessary because the blower can provide off the line grunt. But with a turbo vehicle you have to wait to get into boost, which is where a few more cubes will become more critical.

 

[CDW6212R]

I see now from that post that you perceive the term bench racing differently than I do. I see it as describing a conversation that may or may not include real facts or examples. I do not assume that it must include lies or complete fabrications. I don't automatically judge the term as completely derogatory in all cases. That you do created the big conflict between us. I never suggested that anyone here was being deceptive or forcing opinions without any basis in facts.

My whole rub is not with anyone's choice of plans, people can and will do what they choose to. A lot of people will read these threads and make conclusions. I made my opinion clear that I believe that there is massive fabrication required for any engine larger than a 302 in a 95-01 Explorer. A project to install a 302 based engine is a cake walk compared to any of the others. With a 302 a person can concentrate their efforts on the engine, power adder, and things like tuning.

I personally would love to have a 351W based engine in my truck. Fuel economy is not an issue for me, and the added weight is nothing given the 4500 pound weight already. I learned a lot from an expert at fabricating the parts needed for exactly that swap. I have seen the parts completed, and I think that I know how much effort went into them. That being said, I do not know from personal experience what it would take. But I think that applies to almost anyone who reads this. Yet I think I have a very good idea of how hard that 351W project would be. I suggested that others should avoid that, and take encouragement in knowing that a 302 based engine could satisfy very well.

Of course, to each his/her own, I applaud any hard effort. Regards,

 

[rocket 5979]

I see now from that post that you perceive the term bench racing differently than I do. I see it as describing a conversation that may or may not include real facts or examples. I do not assume that it must include lies or complete fabrications. I don't automatically judge the term as completely derogatory in all cases. That you do created the big conflict between us. I never suggested that anyone here was being deceptive or forcing opinions without any basis in facts.

My whole rub is not with anyone's choice of plans, people can and will do what they choose to. A lot of people will read these threads and make conclusions. I made my opinion clear that I believe that there is massive fabrication required for any engine larger than a 302 in a 95-01 Explorer. A project to install a 302 based engine is a cake walk compared to any of the others. With a 302 a person can concentrate their efforts on the engine, power adder, and things like tuning.

I personally would love to have a 351W based engine in my truck. Fuel economy is not an issue for me, and the added weight is nothing given the 4500 pound weight already. I learned a lot from an expert at fabricating the parts needed for exactly that swap. I have seen the parts completed, and I think that I know how much effort went into them. That being said, I do not know from personal experience what it would take. But I think that applies to almost anyone who reads this. Yet I think I have a very good idea of how hard that 351W project would be. I suggested that others should avoid that, and take encouragement in knowing that a 302 based engine could satisfy very well.

Of course, to each his/her own, I applaud any hard effort. Regards,

Don the term "bench racing" has taken a negative connotation many times throughout conversations far more reaching than my own. I suggest that you know the possible context of the terms you use before "speaking" them.

While there is a large amount of fabrication to do a 351 into an Explorer chassis I would not term it massive. Once again that is really semantics at this point. Regardless of all of that I am sure James is up to it. And here in January he might just have a certain fella moving down to that area that might be of some assistance to him if he does indeed pursue a project of this nature. James' trademark is that Explorer of his; same as my trademark is the Kenne Bell Explorer. That is the point of a business flagship vehicle, to be different and have absolutely insane amounts of power and speed.

 

[Turdle]

I'd like to ask Justin how he feels about his thread. I'd like also to get it back on track. ok

 

[rocket 5979]

I'd like to ask Justin how he feels about his thread. I'd like also to get it back on track. ok

You are right. While Don and I were having some good convo we probably did take it off base just a bit. Oh well, you know how all us wrench turners get.

 

[CDW6212R]

Ditto, let's try to keep this thread about Justin and his turbo project. I'm hoping to work out a remote system also, this is all good motivation.

 

[justin146]

Ditto, let's try to keep this thread about Justin and his turbo project. I'm hoping to work out a remote system also, this is all good motivation.

Since we are off subject, I was told that Todd still has the 1.5l Kenne Bell setup that he modified for an Explorer 5.0 setup. Do you know anything about this? What about your KB? Are you installing it soon?

I found a 5.0 Explorer local that is really cheap- I am thinking adding a blower to it would make a fun beater I have both a Cobra and Lightning M112 sitting on the shelf (gotta love eBay) and I may mod one of these to work on something soon

I just have too many projects going on at one time...

 

[CDW6212R]

Todd has been living right with his new family and home, work etc. His plans were to get the 302 and 1500 back in the truck until he can finish the 351 or 408. I still have a new KB 2200, but I'm thinking that the remote turbo will be a little easier to do. There is more fabrication needed for the KB(engine bay), while the turbo is spread out much more. Todd wanted to go bigger with the KB, but realized that more boost needs some cooling(intercooler). There are a hundred ways to get there, I'm all for the easiest or simplest way.

 

[justin146]

Todd has been living right with his new family and home, work etc. His plans were to get the 302 and 1500 back in the truck until he can finish the 351 or 408. I still have a new KB 2200, but I'm thinking that the remote turbo will be a little easier to do. There is more fabrication needed for the KB(engine bay), while the turbo is spread out much more. Todd wanted to go bigger with the KB, but realized that more boost needs some cooling(intercooler). There are a hundred ways to get there, I'm all for the easiest or simplest way.

Yeah, a remote turbo is usually the simplest method- but the problem with an Explorer is that there arent many places to hide the filter from water. I know James doesnt have water issues, and neither did I until I drove back from St. Louis in pouring down rain. After about two and half hours, I got enough water in the piping to choke my engine. With an underhood install, water wouldnt be an issue.

The Explorer I found near me is a 97 model with a return fuel system. So whatever goes in it will probably involve an FMU and meth injection(no intercooler) with the stock timing curve. I will not be investing on a tune or a proper fuel system for a vehicle that will just be a grocery getter/Home Depot trailer puller

But I still havent decided for sure if I even want another Explorer. I just need something to be my weekender while I have my Explorer torn down. I have also thinking about trying a 4.0 Explorer Sport nitrous experiment, but I havent found any in good condition around me. And the ones I can find are OHV trucks. Whatever I get will likely undergo a LM7+S400 turbo swap after my Explorer is finished.

 

[CDW6212R]

I see, and you might look at the older Explorers for the bigger engine, if you like any of those for style and color. A lot more swaps have been done in the 1st gen. trucks. I know that the frame is almost identical, but the front cross member is a little better I think for oil pan space, steering etc. Ask some of the guys like Jaime about their clearance compared to a 95-01. It's not a bog difference, but it may help. I wish Ford would have made the frames larger(wider). With them as narrow as they are it makes any changes harder.

How much extra space do you have in your truck for an air inlet pipe? I think that the air filter needs to be up front.

 

[jah81592]

Your right Justin I have zero water issues! In the future I may not have any issues period. I am considering returning my truck back to stock....
Don- I understand there are some 5.0L loyalists out there. The roots go deep. I have never understood Ford's theory with fighting the larger cu.in. engines with the 5.0L. Case in point, why do you think so many people are swapping LSx engines into Mustangs now replacing 5.0L's? Well... Cubic inch! You can put all the exotic parts into a 5.0L but once the smoke clears the water you still have a engine which will be limited by cu.in. Yes I am aware that the 302 has plenty of potential but a 408 & 427 cu.in engine (just in case some dont know 351W based stroker engines) have plenty of potential as well. Generally the 351W blocks are stronger and will support a hell of a lot more hp (stock). Interestingly enough, I am a bit peeved at Ford for not continuing with the Boss/Hurricane v-8 program. For once we had an opportunity to fight the General and now Chrysler with a cu.in engine in the Mustang and now the program has been shelved. Might as well say shelved they have reduced the cu.in's in the Mustang to 302/5.0L's and removed it from any other projects with the F150 and car chassis which it was designed for. Pure BS! Hell even Nissan gets it. 5.6L from thier V-8, even Infiniti has a 5.0L in the FX45 grocery getter xover utility vehicle (390 hp). I don't even want to hear about the one off Shelby's and Cobra R. I want a large displacement V-8 in the mainstream-at least 6.0L's. Sadly enough we are left to fight big cu.inch engines with the now aneamic 4.6L for the mainstream GT. I don't even want to go into the TrailblazerSS versus the 4.6L Explorer comparo. Hmm, I will the Trailblazer SS will pull and 9.0 in the 1/8th bone stock, 8.80's tuned. Again 6.0L of displacement working for you.

Take a 302 put heads,cams, and a built stroked bottom end with high dollar parts for the valvetrain and you will be lucky to get 375-400hp, 450 if you are damn lucky NA'd to the crank. The Hemi and LSx engines put 330whp (396hp) down regularly with a freakin tune in thier mainstream engines (not counting the LS7 and 6.1L SRT models)-stock!. Why? Damn good heads and really good hardware to boot. You tell me the last time Ford made a worth a sh@# pushrod head for the 5.0L/5.8L Windsor based engines? Let me think-never! This is the reason for the aftermarket explosion and the likes of TFS,AFR,Edelbrock,etc. Justin was throwing some ideas out and I threw mine out there. I am surprised I got flamed worse than Justin for mentioning swapping a 351 versus a Chevy engine.

 

[Jakee]

So what's the goal here everyone? What are we trying to accomplish?

Heck, if it's all about bigger engines, I'll swap an old carbd 460 in mine and run a 200 shot of nitrous….not

I'm not flaming anyone - whatever a person wants’ to do with their truck is there decision. I think the reason the 351 debate came up in here is because the swap has been tried. It wasn't successful but it can be done. It's just not going to be real easy and it needs to be stated; there may come a time that someone with very little experience tries the swap and wastes a bunch of money doing so. You never know, this may have helped someone.