The Black Hole

[Turdle]

I think the body lift will allow the room for the HVAC. Deck is only about an inch higher, 351 and 302 have same heads. Lower rpms would allow use of manifolds, headers might fit with some work

 

[Turdle]

What's the difference between a 302 and a 351W?

help.summitracing.com

 

[vroomzoomboom]

the deck height is a inch taller i believe, but it is also wider up top as well. 302 it 9 inchs, a 351w is 11 inches. at the bottom, if i remember correctly the front main bearing is the same as a 302, but the rear main bearing is larger.
you can use the motor mounts, heads, shim plate or starter plate if you want to call it that, timing chain cover, cam, and depending on years, damper and flex plate. you wont be able to swap distributors, intakes or oil pans. you would also more then likely have problems possibly clearing the stock steering shaft with the manifolds or headers.

 

[gmanpaint]

Yeah, I knew it would be a fight, and a lot of extra work to shoehorn a 351 in there. Thanks for that Tim and Jon.

I am looking for a more simple stock install using what I know works and fits.

A mild built 302 using TMH's, and a tuner, sounds a hell of a lot more up this old mans alley. I just want more HP for towing 3k lbs up the steep grades, not 1/4 mile times, J hooks on the street, or digging ditches with 40" Mud tires. I also want reliability.

 

[410Fortune]

we bought an ATK 302 many years ago, this is a 302 gt40 (50oz externally balanced) crate engine that makes 370 crank HP
It is still going strong in my buddies 84 Ranger with TMH and a twin stick NP205 t case
LOTS of power, still stock reliability, and with it being a 302 still gets decent mpg
plus fits like stock

they have gone up in price since then about $1200!!!!!!!!

Ford 302 Base Engine 365HP

ATK HP78 Ford 302 Base Engine 365HP, Call 866-721-2315 to Speak with an ATK Crate Engine Specialist

www.high-performance-engines.com

So glad to have you back!!!!!!

 

[gmanpaint]

we bought an ATK 302 many years ago, this is a 302 gt40 based crate engine that makes 370 crank HP
It is still going strong in my buddies 84 Ranger with TMH and a twin stick NP205 t case
LOTS of power, still stock reliability, and with it being a 302 still gets decent mpg
plus fits like stock

So glad to have you back!!!!!!

Now your talking my language!
370 is way more then I am needing tho. LOL I am extremely interested in this Jamie.
Is it EFI or Carbed? If EFI, I'm in like Flint!

 

[410Fortune]

its a longblock (engine and heads)
Add the explorer timing cover, oil pan, accessories, headers, intakes and BLAMO crate engine
We used a 97 Explorer computer, intakes, fuel injection, etc
I am not sure we hit the 365 hp mark with the stock computer and injection but in a 84 ranger it is PLENTY of power
It is a worked over 302 with aluminum heads
ATK is one of the best in the industry last time I checked they make THOUSANDS of engines so no "Crap shoot" that components will work together like you can get going to local machine shop

Darth Ranger has been running this engine for about 10 years now not one single issue

those are the "prototype" TMH from my BII that were used for building his first set of TTB truck "conversion" headers

dual batteries ac and cruise control, radiator tuck, all under the hood of an 84, no body lift.
And they say it cant be done

truck is custom bumper to bumper we built it for him to go "fishing" lol


I had a E303 cam in my old 96, it had a pretty radical idle and sounded awesome, however it was quite "lopey" and seemed to struggle making enough vacuum for the 4 door ex power brake booster. Could easily be solved these days with a hydro boost conversion, it might also help if you don't live at 5000-9000' like I used to

However there are far better cam choices now for a stock"ish" 302 explorer engine, the comp cam XR we use now days was basically designed for the early bronco guys making most of the power and torque below 4200 rpm, down low where us "truck dudes" need it.

 

[gmanpaint]

Heck yeah! Wasn't sure what the build was like, but all that makes sense.
The crate engines I had in mind was the long blocks with alum heads. Would think of using flat tops with 9.5:1 Compression. The TMH's for the 3" BL (steering shaft), are a necessity.
I am unsure about the cams to use for lower end HP, and reliable daily use. This is one of the main questions I was going to be asking about to help figure out. The build might happen at a friends over the winter, and the less head scratches the better for us. If it's too much for us too handle, then I will have to use a builder for 2-3x's the $$. I will revisit this after more research! Thank you!

Edit: Just seen the add on pics/info Jamie. I think the older Rangers have a bit bigger engine compartments, as I know couple who have swapped in 351's into them without as much fitment issues as the newer gens. That is deffo a tight squeeze with all he added tho! I noticed a diff fuel rail on it too.

 

[410Fortune]

the gen I engine bays are SMALLER, not as much LENGTH (from radiator support to firewall)
The fuel rail pictured is a 97 Explorer stocker
The big difference with the old rangers/BII (rain gutter trucks) is the TTB engine cradle and frame rails are different. The HVAC box is also a different shape, but requires a large notch to clear v8 valve covers.
Your truck would not need any notch, no radiator tuck, it would bolt in like stock (its just a 302! that happens to make 365 crank HP if you give it enough air and fuel)

The long block from ATK comes "turn key" with the aluminum heads
He shipped it with a mustang timing cover though so we had to swap that to the explorer one. I believe now days you can request the explorer timing cover from ATK

I hope this helps
I did a &SSload of research before we spent his $$$$, I know you will too!!

I do want to put a 351 into a ranger I have there are some advantages to the 351, but also it complicates/ can complicate the swap a bit due to its size

 

[Turdle]

Need over 1 hp per cubic inch with 302, 351 tuned to just 1 hp per cube would run better, less fuel, more torque. It'll run on stock PCM too if bet.

Once the 351 long block is fitted, the above 302 mods applied to a 408 cu inch might be able to tow your 6000 lb trailer. I have doubts about 302 cubes doing that. Just my opinion.

The 351 will also be a stronger block,it'll take stroking better than 302 block.

 

[DemonMudder]

Need over 1 hp per cubic inch with 302, 351 tuned to just 1 hp per cube would run better, less fuel, more torque. It'll run on stock PCM too if bet.

Once the 351 long block is fitted, the above 302 mods applied to a 408 cu inch might be able to tow your 6000 lb trailer. I have doubts about 302 cubes doing that. Just my opinion.

The 351 will also be a stronger block,it'll take stroking better than 302 block.

I could be wrong here, but from what I've heard, it's harder to find parts for the 351 vs the 350. I know it's a chevy/gmc engine, but there really is so much aftermarket for that, like out the wazoo. That and the 383, since technically it's the 350 just bored over, plenty of power and a room to upgrade further. The issue would be making it work in the X, but just some food for thought, and as said, I could be wrong.

Heck, give me several years, when I have my own place and can sit around doing things like an engine swap, I'll probably see about making one fit if I can, just because I'm loving it in Rado, and the X will be lighter and smaller making that engine feel so much more powerful, even at stock. A lifted X with a 383 pushing 600 hp, could you imagine...lol

 

[Turdle]

I could be wrong here, but from what I've heard, it's harder to find parts for the 351 vs the 350. I know it's a chevy/gmc engine, but there really is so much aftermarket for that, like out the wazoo. That and the 383, since technically it's the 350 just bored over, plenty of power and a room to upgrade further. The issue would be making it work in the X, but just some food for thought, and as said, I could be wrong.

Heck, give me several years, when I have my own place and can sit around doing things like an engine swap, I'll probably see about making one fit if I can, just because I'm loving it in Rado, and the X will be lighter and smaller making that engine feel so much more powerful, even at stock. A lifted X with a 383 pushing 600 hp, could you imagine...lol

Blasphemy!!

 

[CDW6212R]

The 351W would make more torque at any rpm's than a 302 based engine. If you could fabricate the custom oil pan and do the work to fit headers and AC etc, the engine build would be no harder than a 302 based engine. The 302 is 8.20" block deck, the 351 is 9.50" tall.

Head flow will decide how much power it can make, plus the rpm band it's going to be optimum within. The stock GT40P and all OEM SBF heads are low performance, all except the Cleveland heads. None of them flow 190cfm @.500" or.600" lift, while most cheap aftermarket heads will flow at least 235cfm.

You better not use any camshaft other than a custom cam, unless it's a stock or super mild engine. A custom cam should be about $100 more, period, plus any extra to optimize it such as a better valve springs. The best cam designers will suggest a valve spring kit that should cost $275ish, versus $150 for a plain common spring kit. So budget wise, a custom cam may cost just $200 or so extra, if you plan for it in the buying stage(don't buy heads OTS that are complete with springs installed). A custom cam is better in all ways, idle, low end torque, smoothness, efficiency, and power everywhere.

Prices are way up, a stock block shortblock 347 is around $4k now the last I read, and heads are near $1800 or more complete for name brand stuff. Lesser brand heads will flow well under 250cfm, that's the $1k or so stuff. The 260cfm or more level costs way more, near that $1800 mark give or take a little(top heads will flow over 300cfm). A 351+ engine size needs that bigger flow.

With a great tune, and the custom camshaft, it's possible to run regular fuel with around 9.7:1 compression. The tune and cam, plus the quench dimensions of the combination(piston to chamber) is very important to the efficiency. Do it right, and it'll run great, put it together with random poor numbers, and the timing will have to be backed off to keep it from knocking, or have to run premium. That's where a custom cam is very important, you tell the designer the needs, the fuel octane, the vehicle weight and altitude, engine details, heads/pistons/chambers, and they can make something which has a great chance to run on regular.

 

[410Fortune]

There is no replacement for displacement

 

[CDW6212R]

There is no replacement for displacement

Yes, but the costs of a stroker kit are additive, and the trouble to force a 351W into the 2nd gen engine bay are considerable. If you went that route, it would be easy to build a 408 using the stock block, similar costs of a 347(short block) for example. But the extra need for higher end heads might push the budget over what many would like. The 302-347 you can get away with heads that might be under $1300 or so complete, and still make plenty of power up top. The 408 would lower the power rpm curve, possibly needing the more expensive($1800) heads etc.

It comes down to the budget like always, you need to temper the goals with costs, plus the different labor etc. I think what people used to buy with $5000 isn't at all what you can get now. I bet a 408 would put it above $7k with nice parts, the heads and valvetrain, stroker kit and machine work. That's just the engine too, shoehorning the Windsor engine hasn't been done hardly at all in the 2nd gen trucks.

 

[traveler]

Greg, i think your original plan of a built 302, with an RV cam and headers will attain what you're wanting. That said, I would absolutely LOVE to have a 351 in mine. But as has been pointed out, getting it in is a challenge. Perhaps a stroked 302? Same exterior dimensions as a 302, extra displacement better low end torque?
We all dream of what we want about the extravagant stuff (I have a regular dream of finding a genie in the desert who makes Little Eddie my dream build but...) but the almighty dollar is still the regulating factor in all of our builds. Make it pull the camper up inclines and it'll for sure do the trails you're wanting when unhitched.

 

[gmanpaint]

I'm not in the best shape these days, and fighting to fit the 351 is not anything I am willing to deal with. Maybe 10-15 years ago, and before I had Heart disease, but not now.
The built 302 (even stroked) is what I am after to pull the 3000 lb (not 6k) camping trailer up these steep grades at speed, without falling on it's face, and to be able to cruise at speed at lower rpm's. That's all I am after. 100 more HP at the wheels should be plenty to accomplish this need. The less done to it, the better for reliability as well. I have seen way too many people go all out, only to have the vehicle unused, as they sit being worked on constantly, and I do not want to be 1000 miles from home, with a camping trailer, stuck somewhere for a hard to find/replace/work on part/issue.

The Crate long block, with Alum heads, a custom cam, headers known to fit, and stock accessories sounds perfect for me.

 

[gmanpaint]

Looking at all the 302/347 Crate engines on Summit has me a bit bewildered. None of them have EFI, and all use distributors/carbs. What I don't understand ( My ignorance showing ) is if this matters? Can you use the same block for either? Does the Cam sync take the place of the distributor?

They have a few listed that sounds good to me, and I think I need to call them directly and start asking questions.

Also none of these ATK crate engines are available on Summit any longer, for some reason.

 

[CDW6212R]

For a stock block stroker for that lower(normal) rpm band, I'd aim for the highest compression that a custom cam expert tells you will work with regular fuel. That means matching the pistons to the chamber size, plus narrowing down the head gasket thickness to fine tune that and the quench. Discuss both of those with the cam designer(not a cam tech line guy).

The heads for a 347 and needing mid range power to be maximum, don't have to be 250cfm, but 190cfm(GT40's) isn't ideal. I'd see what feasible aluminum heads are out there, I wonder if a pedestal rocker head is available much any longer, and what the max lift is for the stock type rockers. I'm planning a similar build that requires maximum reliability and street rpm power, but for my stock 351C-4V in my for sale Ranchero. The stock heads use pedestal rockers that can generally reach .550" lift, which should be enough to get near the most out of a custom cam potential. Roller rockers are much more expensive, and way less reliable. They are noisy which is a minor annoyance, and harder to set up, but the chance of breaking the rocker studs down the line is worrisome.

The carb versus EFI is no issue, what matters are the pistons and compression, matched with the head chambers, the camshaft which is made for all of that. Any 302 block will work, just be sure to use the needed oil filter block adapter(Explorer is metric, all others are old SAE).

 

[410Fortune]

In order to use the explorer damper and accessories you want a 50oz externally balanced small block like the Atk I posted earlier. It comes with the cam and heads you just add explorer “dress” to it

Yes the cam synchronizer goes in place of the distributor