Turbo on 2000 Limited 5.0

Well guys, I don't even have it yet and I'm looking at going turbo.

I think I'll be going STS style with the turbo underneath the the body. I'm hoping I can find room somewhere closer to the front to mount it. If not, I may just go classic style and cut the muffler out and install the turbo in its place.

Tim was kind enough to point me at a turbo for sale locally. I'm checking it out now. I sent the specs to James Henson to see what his thoughts are.

Here's the specs:
t4 F1-68 turbine .68 a/r housing 3" exhaust outlet with a 72mm compressor blade 4inch inlet, 2.5 inch outlet, journal bearing. Also, see compressor map attached. I have a vague understanding, and that concerns me.

Now, the next issue is oil routing.
Oil in to the turbo would be handled from a T off the oil pressure sending unit on the block. Return oil would need a scavenge pump to the top of the oil pan, or in the timing chain cover. The scavenge pump adds quite a bit of cost to the setup. I think saving a few bucks in this area would spell disaster. So, this seems to be the best pump out there:
http://turbowerx.com/Scavenge_Pumps/Exa-Pump/Exa-Pump.html
Stainless steel oil lines will have to be used. As I read about under cab mounted turbo's oil issues seem to be a huge issue. This is going to require careful thought and routing.

My real issue is routing the air filter and compressed air up to the engine bay.
The frame rails will be the the way. I saw one guy notched out his frame for the plumbing and re-enforced the frame by welding metal around the plumbing line (3 inch or 4 inch hole). I'm concerned about running the two pipes and think this will be the biggest challenge. I really don't want that air filter under the truck.
See what this guy did on his ranger?


As for Maf? Pro-M all the way, in a blow thru design.

Fuel pump, injectors, sct go without saying. I'll be having James put together a care package for me along with the Pro-M.
Aeromotive Stealth 340 pump
Bosch uscar (EV6) 60lb injectors part # 108191

I'll recycle my boost gauge and wide band o2 from my supercharged 4.0 ohv.

I'll be using stainless steel for everything under the truck as rust always seems to be an issue.

Also. intercooling. I learned from my last project that cool intake air is incredibly important. People say on under cabin turbo's you don't really need it as the compressed air cools on the way up. Not good enough for me. Im going to go air/water so I have flexibility as to where I mount the intercooler. This could change, but intercooling of some form is a must.

My eye's are watering at what this is going to cost.

I see 02Limited turbo'd his, but he must have had quite a few issues and fell off the forum.

Not much info on guys completing something like this to be found. All input appreciated.

This will be a long process.

 

[2000StreetRod]

throttle vs IACV

This is a very interesting problem which I'm confident will be resolved soon. Does the engine idle if you open the throttle plate slightly but not with the throttle plate closed and using just the IAC valve? If so, is the inlet to the IAC valve upstream of the throttle plate and the outlet downstream of the throttle plate?

 

[Dono]

[MENTION=111113]2000StreetRod[/MENTION] No, no idling with throttle plate opened. I think Im way to lean for that. Everything is exactly stock, and in stock locations except for the following:
pcv system, injectors, slot maf, and turbo plumbed to the throttle body.

Now, if I look at the logs I sent 4pointslow, here is what I see:

Stock Maf, stock tune: .94 # air flow/min at 743rpm
Slot Maf, stock tune: .68 # air flow/min at 800rpm
Slot Maf, James last tune .80 # air flow/min at 792rpm (I think this flow rate should be around .95 to match the stock maf and stock tuning).

The slot maf reads way less. Now, keep in mind that the 60 lb injectors have a completely different slope also. This means that the pcm might be pulsing the 60 lb injectors at the correct rate at .68 # air flow/min reading from the slot maf.
What I did learn is that by connecting the turbo air tube to the throttlebody and plugging in the slot maf with the 19lb injectors is that the truck is WAY to lean to idle. The stock tune allows for a little bit of idling before stalling, and the last tune James sent me allows for almost no idling at all on the 19lb injectors. This would be consistent with the fact that the 60lb injectors would flow way more at smaller pulse rates.

4pointslow, wouldn't we want the tune to be adjusted so that the slot maf reads the same flow rates as the stock maf, then adjust the injector slope rates for the 60 lb injectors?

Attached is what came back on the injectors. One has a lower max flow, but that's not an issue for me as I'll be going no where near max injector flow for these injectors in my build.

Lets wait on 4pointslow. I'm certain he will correct me if I'm way off base.

What I would love to do is get the Pro Racer package, tune for the slot maf and stock injectors, then add the 60lb injectors and tune for that. It seems to me that adding the slot maf and injectors at once makes my head hurt with all the variables.

 

[phix-]

Maybe I am missing it, why 60lb and not 42lb injectors? 60 seems like ALOT.

 

[Dono]

Maybe I am missing it, why 60lb and not 42lb injectors? 60 seems like ALOT.

No idea, that just what James suggested for the build. Its over kill, but the duty cycle on the injectors will be low and I'm told they don't have idle issues.
Also, the 60lber's were not any more money than smaller ones.

 

[2000StreetRod]

Deka IV 60s

I've had good luck with the Deka IV 60 lbs/hr injectors even though they are way overkill for my application. As I recall they're adequate for more than 500 rwhp. However, they have very good low duty cycle characteristics. I had to lower the minimum pulse width to considerably less than that specified by Siemans. But a too wide minimum pulse width would result in a rich mixture at idle - not lean.

With no boost the actual airflow at idle should be about the same with either MAF sensor. However, the stock MAF vs slot transfer functions are totally different. The PCM knows the MTF differences so that's comparing apples and oranges. James follows the SCT practice of tuning the MTF instead of tuning the injector slopes. I was never successful using injector slope tuning with the Deka IVs.

 

[4pointslow]

datalog

I have to double shift tomorrow so this wont be long.
In one of the tunes, I don't know which one, names are too confusing and I am tired.
I see STFT at .700 something, that is adding fuel.
Then I see LTFT go to 1.200 something, that is also adding fuel.
The wideband was around 10 A/F which is rich. Doesn't make sense.
Can you do a datalog with O2 sensors voltages added please. Just HO2S11 and HO2S21, they are the front two. You can remove the bottom two things in live link, Vehicle speed and WOT open loop flag so you have room to add the os sensor voltages.

 

[2000StreetRod]

analog 1

What is analog 1? It has the same equation as analog 2 but it's voltage is about -205 resulting in an output of -22.

 

[Dono]

Analog 1 Is vacuum/boost.
I pulled my drivers side header tonight and my header is cracked really bad. Spark plugs are black. I'm visiting with family, but I'll post pics shortly.
I need to get that exhaust leak fixed, it might be part of the issue.

 

[Dono]

I need to take care of the header before I go any further.
No cell's, but this cant be a good thing.
I haven't checked the other bank yet.
I doubt this is 'the' issue, but definitely 'A' issue.
I'll pick up a new set of plugs at the correct heat range, I installed ar103's in anticipation of having no issues.
Either tomorrow night I have the header fixed, or a stock manifold goes on for now. Ive been waiting on Al's Headers for about 3 months, and I'm guessing wait time will probably be close to a year, I can't wait on them to fix my exhaust leak.

 

[vroomzoomboom]

are you off tomorrow don? if you are, shoot me a text or call me. i will run over with the welder and see what we can do with your headers.
if your not, let me know when you get home.
that and you should have told me you were doing that tonight. i would have helped lol

 

[Dono]

Thx Tim, I was trying to fit in the work around family stuff.
I'm going to run the header over to Glenn at duels if he has time tomorrow. One of the collector bolts broke in the header also. It was super tight, but I wasn't in the mood to keep working it. I was surprised, as the headers havnt been on long.
I'm working tomorrow, but I'll keep you updated. The header is way worse than I thought, it's cracking all around the collector and in the Centre.
Perseverance. That's all I can say. No tools have gone flying on to the street yet, but I'm getting close.

 

[jd4242]

Is that the first time you have pulled plugs?? If so that alone might fix ALOT of issues.

 

[Dono]

I replaced the plugs when I installed the headers. What ever is going on fouled them pretty bad. My concern is that I keep fouling them over and over. At least with a spare set, I can clean them and have them ready for another swap.
I completely understand why James doesn't want to send any more tunes as the information in the logs is seemingly crazy. I mean, even with these fouled plugs, the stock tune worked with the stock injectors and maf. What is going on?

 

[jd4242]

I replaced the plugs when I installed the headers. What ever is going on fouled them pretty bad. My concern is that I keep fouling them over and over. At least with a spare set, I can clean them and have them ready for another swap.
I completely understand why James doesn't want to send any more tunes as the information in the logs is seemingly crazy. I mean, even with these fouled plugs, the stock tune worked with the stock injectors and maf. What is going on?

They may be just producing enough spark to ignite a good ideal mix but foul out when things get crazy..they look really bad considering you said you was getting a lean situation right? Think your getting everything figured out so hopefully she be running soon.I just wish I was obd2 like you guys.all the info your all have and are getting is crazy..imagine if you didnt have all that data and trying to figure this out.lol

 

[2000StreetRod]

wideband analog equation

According to the Innovate LC-1 manual for the wideband output:
0 volts = 7.35 AFR, 5 volts = 22.39 AFR
From that the Livelink analog equation should be ((3.008*v)+7.35)/14.64 instead of
((1.5*v)+10)/14.64 with the output plotted in lambda. However, your datalogs have the value in AFR instead of lambda. Did you program the LC-1 to multiply the output by 14.64? Otherwise, I don't understand how the values in your datalogs can match the analog equation. Do the values displayed on your wideband match the values in the datalog? If you want the Livelink plots in AFR the equation should be (3.008*v)+7.35.

 

[Dono]

The lc1 wide band comes with analog 2 defaulted to AFR. Then, I just select the equation in the live link software. I'll double check this, but I'm reasonably certain it is correct as that all I did with tuning my other truck.

 

[2000StreetRod]

vacuum/boost

Analog 1 Is vacuum/boost. . .

Your vacuum values look reasonable.

 

[Dono]

I'm not sure the equation is perfect, it might need some fine tuning. James emailed me and wants my to double check my pigtail I 'stretched' for the slot maf. He's concerned I mixed a wire up. I'm sure I cut and soldered 1 wire at a time, but it's still definitely worth looking at.

 

[2000StreetRod]

LC-1 capabilities

The lc1 wide band comes with analog 2 defaulted to AFR. Then, I just select the equation in the live link software. I'll double check this, but I'm reasonably certain it is correct as that all I did with tuning my other truck.

Your LC-1 is capable of simulating a narrow band O2 sensor by connecting the yellow wire (analog1) output to the X3. The wideband brown wire output (analog2) should be connected to your X3 and the yellow wire left isolated. The default analog2 output is 0 volts = 7.35 AFR and 5 volts = 22.39 AFR. The Livelink equation for the default output should be (3.008*v)+7.35. When v =0 AFR =7.35. With your equation ((1.5*v)+10)/14.64 when v = 0, AFR would equal .68. I don't understand how your plots are showing values around 22.

 

[4pointslow]

Af

22 A/F is probably misfire.
Rich misfire, lean misfire, ignition misfire, compression loss misfire.
All cause high o2 readings due to unburnt oxygen in exhaust.