The Black Hole

[vroomzoomboom]

have you looked at blueprint engines?

 

[gmanpaint]

have you looked at blueprint engines?

I haven't. Just started looking into the crate engines, and not much time spent yet. I'm starting off on the ground floor to get my head wrapped around the basics first, then go from there. the crate engines already lower end built, and the heads already matched, is something I am wanting, in order to avoid a lot of the actual building aspect. I am more wanting a bolt in kit being under some restrictions with working locations, not having (or wanting to buy) specialty tools just for this, and not wanting much down time. Yes, I realize that is asking a lot, but the crate engines offer solutions to most of these wants/needs.

I'm not getting notifications for this thread for some reason, sorry for the delayed responses!

@410Fortune I checked into that ATK link, and looked over the specs. Looks like they used a lot of items, that I wouldn't be to get those posted HP #'s. Pasted ATK's list below. I put a ✔ next to those items, in the list below. I put a ? next to the items I'm not sure about. The 91 octane is an issue if I am in areas of high elevation, as not all stations sell that high of a grade.

Engine Info from ATK on this model.

Oil : 10W30 Oil Filter: Wix or K&N Recommended Per Your Application Fuel Delivery : Quick Fuel Carburetor 680cfm #HR-680-VS ✔ Intake Manifold : Edelbrock Performer RPM Dual Plane #7121 ✔ Spark Plugs : Autolite #3923 ? Spark Plug Gap : .035 Harmonic Balancer/Damper : Professional Products Externally Balanced 50oz Dual Bolt Pattern #80007 Flex Plate / Flywheel : Externally Balanced 50oz 157 Tooth ? Timing : 34-36 Degrees Total Water Pump : Standard Rotation Right Hand Inlet Firing Order : 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8 Exhuast : 1 5/8 Headers Fuel Pump : Holley 110GPH Mechanical #12-289-11 ✔ Fuel : 91+ Octane ? Ignition : Pro Billet with Melonized gear ✔ Automatic Transmission Stall Converter : 2500-2800 ✔

The specs listed by ATK for this same model. The questions I have from this list is:

Rods.... Not forged, is that OK?
Cam specs... Use or change to custom grind, and if custom, why and how much is involved reworking the heads for it?
Oil pan.... Use or HAVE to change for the stock pan (cant remember the sumps location for the cross member)? I had to dent the stock pan to make room for the front axle CAD housing.

• Horsepower: 365
• Torque: 370 lb/ft
• Block: Seasoned OE Roller Block
• Bore/Stroke: 4.040 x 3.000
• Displacement: 302 C.I.D.
• Crankshaft: OE Ford Cast 3.000" Stroke 1 Piece Seal Externally Balanced 50oz.
• Connecting Rods: OE Steel Rod 5.400" Stock Bolts ?
• Pistons: Hypereutectic Flat Top
• Piston Rings: Moly Rings
• Compression Ratio: 9.5:1 Compression
• Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller
• Camshaft Specifications: 220/224 @050 .512in/.512ex 112LSA ?
• Camshaft Bearings: Installed & Clocked to OEM Position
• Cylinder Heads: Dart Pro 1 aluminum 58cc/170cc 2.02/1.60
• Freeze Plugs: Brass Installed & Sealed
• Rocker Arms: Billet Aluminum 1.6 Full Roller
• Oil Galley Plugs: Installed & Sealed
• Oil Pan: OE 5qt. Front Sump ?
  Weight:350
  
  
  
  Last thing on my mind is the TMH's made for the 3" body lift. Will these be direct bolt on with these heads as is, or do I need to tell Bob the heads specs before hand in case he needs to change something for proper fitment?
  
  If I want to get this engine installed, and running in time for next years Moab meet in May, I need to get this going yesterday. TMH might be 6 months out!
  Thanks for any help. I will check in here once or twice a day for any updates, since the notifications stopped working here.

 

[CDW6212R]

Your engine now has GT40 heads correct, not GT40P heads? I think so, and the TMH will work identically on all non P heads except those higher end types with special header bolt patterns(two pairs of holes per cylinder etc).

You will have to use your oil pan, headers, front accessories, balancer(or compatible(Damper dudes(which is just a rebalanced stock new Explorer part))). The flexplate has to match the balancer weight imbalance amount, in 164 teeth(late model(the 157 etc are old old models)).

9.5:1 compression will work with regular fuel, if the camshaft is designed for it, big benefit of a custom cam. Hypereutectic pistons are weak like all cast pistons(they are cast). Those cheap/weak pistons still cost $300 or more, plus $50 for rings. With unknown waiting(all parts), you still can buy very nice, and lighter, forged pistons(with rings), for $550ish. For a cheap mild 302, you could save the $200 there, if you psuh the output and want more, spend more on some things, then that $200 is worth it to get the better pistons(look up Wiseco but there are others too in that price range(some are $750+ too(skip those))).

Try to find either a bare long block that has the compression and displacement you want, or just a short block which will work with a head choice you can make. I have some complete Flo Tek heads I don't have a use for any longer, 58cc chambers, slightly ported to correct china copy casting(they are knock offs of GT40X heads). Like many in the $1000 price range, the quality of that head level is slightly a concern, but a well done head builder can find and correct typical issues. Mine were done all by Thumper, he was known for porting all kinds of GT40 and E7 stock heads etc. I had him(paid him) to install different springs(a kit for $275 that Ed Curtis suggested for a custom cam). So they are new and already set up for a custom cam, with normal pistons(not TW valve reliefs). I think mating them to a 347 is trickier to hit the 9.5:1 or so compression. There are so many piston choices(relief volumes as well as brand and quality), it's hard to pick just what you want.

You might also contact one of the old experts that are regular members of the Corral, one is well known I'm thinking of and old owner of big piston makers(Probe for one). He still has a business that dabbles in some builds, and he knows most of the piston specs by heart(memory).

This engine build idea is similar to what I was pondering for my spare SUV, my Mountaineer, to replace the high mileage 302. Pricing it as stock, versus well upgrade as I've I've described here, versus a 347 version, I saw it costing more than I wanted to pay. So I imagined a take out low mileage 2017 F150 3.7 V6 and matching six speed, new diff/gears, shafts etc. I think it could be cheaper for the late model engine, but for towing I'd want the SBF for sure. Building the engine and trans myself, I see the custom cam 306 costing $300) at least, and a 347 version well over $4k. The trans is different issue, skip that thought.

So I hope your crate engine choices are well below $3k for a complete long block. It will cost a little more to fit the needed cam, intake, balancer etc. I think you are after the main core engine(long block), and make it the best it can be for the truck and towing, low and mid range torque.

 

[Turdle]

Yes, you will need to have heads determined and contact Robert to order headers for them .

 

[410Fortune]

I put my original TMH on the ATK crate engine, we had to grind some aluminum in a couple of spots so they would clear
These were the prototype TTB truck headers from my original BII 5.0 swap.

TMH or OBX headers can bolt on to the dart aluminum heads yes will need to do some simple clearancing and run 45 degree spark plug boots
The same headers fit gt40 and gt40p heads, but that is besides the point this engine comes with aluminum dart based heads
You do not need forged rods unless planning boost over 8psi IMO

Robert is still shipping headers, last set we ordered took 6 months but they got here in July of 2022 (Still new in Box @sandsprayer lol)

if you buy the ATK engine or similar you do not need to do any additional cam or head work, it is a turn key engine dyno tuned to make 365 hp with the right fuel and air delivery

It makes me smile to log into EF and see you are back!! Talking trucks!! That is most important!!!!!

 

[vroomzoomboom]

so, im going to be that guy.
to me getting a local builder is better. you can sit with the guy, tell him what you want or need, he can make suggestions as well. go on a few local facebook groups, car meets, ect and ask who is a reliable builder as well. one of the big reasons i say that is the guy is local. you support someone local. you can also (or sometimes) pay some here and there instead of dropping the entire payment at once. if you also have a problem you can walk into the shop and talk face to face with the guy instead of being on a phone with someone that had nothing to do with the build of your motor. these are my 2 cents.
i say this because i have dono's motor in evil. he went threw a builder in illinois that in my opinion didnt really seem to care a whole bunch after he got it (that and the way it was shipped.....like wow). in the end he paired up with a very well known builder with a awesome rep that will stand by what he builds. to this day, i really dont know how many miles are on that motor but it has stood up to -45C to 40C weather, traffic, road trips, then me beating the snot out of it. once again, my 2 cents.
now the other things, the tmh i have on my motor were on the first 302 gtp 40 heads. the fit with no problems, and have been on 2 different sends of TFS heads. a different set didnt fit so well and the valve covers had to be ground down. both used TFS alum tall valve covers. robert had told me you might have to do that.
for the balancers, you can also get damper dudes to cut down a 3.8 (i think thats what mine is) balancer, then run a 94-95 crank pulley if you need to if you are not wanting the stock explorer balancer.
one thing to watch for is when dono had his motor built, he wanted to use a hi volume oil pump. these will not fit inside a stock explorer oil pan. they are a 1/4 taller. the other problem is you cant dimple the pan because the power steering rack is right under when it would need to be dimpled.

 

[410Fortune]

Then there are the horror stories of going with someone local and having a nightmare never put together properly Mis match of parts
There are tons of those stories out there too

Jasper Atk and others build hundreds of engines w proven parts and setups dyno tested shipped in proper crates with warranties

Research is the key here for sure

 

[gmanpaint]

Wow, thanks for all the replies!!

Don, it's a 98, so should be GT40p heads.

Tim, that sounds great if it all went down that way here. After searching unsuccessfully around here for the last 2 years for a trust worthy engine builder, the choice to go reliable crate, or nothing at all, was made. (After living here for 10 years, I have yet to make trust worthy local, a friend. I rather be alone, then change for them.)

After 10 years of seeing the immoral, crime ridden, disgusting acts towards humanity, and the general knowledge that people here, are mostly out to screw you anyway they can, and they do on the daily, using a local builder isn't on the table. You can't just trust the word of someone you do not know, or have ever dealt with. I ether buy a crate engine, and finish the bolt on bits myself, or I sell this rig, and buy something better suited for my wants and needs. I'm trying to keep this thing around longer. My patience and time to play has grown very short. Be lucky if I have 7 years left to spend on this rig/hobby.

Trust matters to me, and why I am asking here on this forum, amongst those I do trust, over the local riff raff, who only care about getting the most cash, for the least amount of work/effort/care. Without you all, this wouldn't even be a consideration for me. I would be shopping for a new vehicle, ready to go.

The things metioned so far that has made me go Hmmm, are the flywheel/balancers, the sump pickup tube and the pan, the TMH's fitment, the quality of the ATK parts used being questioned, and the costs for a long block crate engine.

ATK uses a 50 Oz balancer for a 157 Tooth flywheel. I currently use a 164 tooth that weighs different? I was under the impression that I use a 157T and the 347's use the balanced 164T.
ATK uses inferior pistons and rings, yet they warranty this 365hp for 2 full years?
"IF" this engine requires a high volume oil pump, are they all made the same, with the same measures? If the steel pan needs a 3/8" dent made to clear the 1/4" longer pickup tube, but the R&P is in the way, can't the engine be lifted at the Mounts with plates?
Just order the TMH and deal with fitment after they arrive, or try to get them made to fit beforehand? If self fitment method....How much modifications, whats the risks, and are they worth the cost savings?
Costs for parts is one thing, and costs for putting them parts together reliably, and with a warranty is another. Peace of mind is priceless thousands of miles from home. It's not like being on a trailer taken here and there on a weekend. It's more about being in BFE, and a breakdown can kill you. Sometimes spending a bit more on things for peace of mind, is well worth the extra costs and less aggravation (Bad ticker now). Sometimes it bites me in the ass too, as I learned with the last engine go around. I refuse to let one bad apple ruin the entire basket.

If after all the engine research is done, and the bad outweighs the good, I will simply go a different route. While I love this rig, I am not married to it.

 

[sandsprayer]

I need to get this going yesterday. TMH might be 6 months out!

Way late to this thread, but glad you are doing well and recovering.
Like Jamie said I have a set of TMH at his shop and should you need, we can figure out a way to get them to you if you order me some new ones!

 

[sandsprayer]

Robert is still shipping headers, last set we ordered took 6 months but they got here in July of 2022 (Still new in Box @sandsprayer lol)

Go ahead an cheap shot Jamie, kick me when I'm down!

 

[CDW6212R]

Wow, thanks for all the replies!!

Don, it's a 98, so should be GT40p heads.

Tim, that sounds great if it all went down that way here. After searching unsuccessfully around here for the last 2 years for a trust worthy engine builder, the choice to go reliable crate, or nothing at all, was made. (After living here for 10 years, I have yet to make trust worthy local, a friend. I rather be alone, then change for them.)

After 10 years of seeing the immoral, crime ridden, disgusting acts towards humanity, and the general knowledge that people here, are mostly out to screw you anyway they can, and they do on the daily, using a local builder isn't on the table. You can't just trust the word of someone you do not know, or have ever dealt with. I ether buy a crate engine, and finish the bolt on bits myself, or I sell this rig, and buy something better suited for my wants and needs. I'm trying to keep this thing around longer. My patience and time to play has grown very short. Be lucky if I have 7 years left to spend on this rig/hobby.

Trust matters to me, and why I am asking here on this forum, amongst those I do trust, over the local riff raff, who only care about getting the most cash, for the least amount of work/effort/care. Without you all, this wouldn't even be a consideration for me. I would be shopping for a new vehicle, ready to go.

The things metioned so far that has made me go Hmmm, are the flywheel/balancers, the sump pickup tube and the pan, the TMH's fitment, the quality of the ATK parts used being questioned, and the costs for a long block crate engine.

ATK uses a 50 Oz balancer for a 157 Tooth flywheel. I currently use a 164 tooth that weighs different? I was under the impression that I use a 157T and the 347's use the balanced 164T.
ATK uses inferior pistons and rings, yet they warranty this 365hp for 2 full years?
"IF" this engine requires a high volume oil pump, are they all made the same, with the same measures? If the steel pan needs a 3/8" dent made to clear the 1/4" longer pickup tube, but the R&P is in the way, can't the engine be lifted at the Mounts with plates?
Just order the TMH and deal with fitment after they arrive, or try to get them made to fit beforehand? If self fitment method....How much modifications, whats the risks, and are they worth the cost savings?
Costs for parts is one thing, and costs for putting them parts together reliably, and with a warranty is another. Peace of mind is priceless thousands of miles from home. It's not like being on a trailer taken here and there on a weekend. It's more about being in BFE, and a breakdown can kill you. Sometimes spending a bit more on things for peace of mind, is well worth the extra costs and less aggravation (Bad ticker now). Sometimes it bites me in the ass too, as I learned with the last engine go around. I refuse to let one bad apple ruin the entire basket.

If after all the engine research is done, and the bad outweighs the good, I will simply go a different route. While I love this rig, I am not married to it.

You use a normal pressure and volume oil pump, Melling is the best choice and they make two similar(one's blueprinted and worth the $75ish). So you keep your oil pan, and flexplate etc, all external parts. The 157T is just a tooth gear difference, the balance of the main part is the same(50oz or 28oz). The headers will be a test to fit like others have said, you have to snug them on and see how the plugs and wires lay, how much clearance there will be.

The crate engine hp ratings will all be based on their cam, and the intended intake, carb, the headers they expect being used, and the bigger exhaust expected, and the rpm it's intended for. I guarantee you that all of that is intended to make the 365hp at much higher rpm than you plan, and the result will be lower power and torque at all lower and mid range rpm levels. I have never seen a crate engine that even came close to matching the hoped for power band, buyers basically alter their vehicle's induction and exhaust to fit the engine's needs.

So the crate engine should be looked at for just the main engine components, hopefully just a long block(no intake or carb, no oil pan, or even timing cover). You need your timing cover, all older 302/351W covers will not work(crank sensor mounting holes(2)). I'd aim for a trust worthy engine you can find with quality build parts, and no cam. They really don't build them that way, a ton of their profit is in those many external items plus the camshaft. They are selling you mainly the big hp rating and the warrantee. I wish Woody would still build stock block engines, Ford Strokers is a great engine builder source. They only do Dart block 302's now, which are $2200 extra just for that block.

 

[Turdle]

I'm going to throw this idea out there, dumb as it might sound but then...

A superlift front box kit will drop the front diff 2". 351 possible .
It would surely open doors of oil pan possibilities, cad diff clearance, oh, and headers would fit easier also . Much more area to run longer, thicker tubing at collector area. Your body lift helps clear on top.

302 or 351 parts , build will cost same. You'll get more torque with a good ol stock 351 block.

Check powernation 410 build. 450 lb ft from 2000 up on dyno. You'd only need to turn that to 5000 rpms to be grinning.

 

[Turdle]

It cost a whole lot of coin just to turn a 302 into a 347, and reliability will suffer.

A 351 already is. Just a good cam and some compression added. Don't need all the fancy 6000 rpm stuff. Stock heads and manifold will deliver if gone over well. It'll be way easier to tune.

 

[410Fortune]

You guys are awesome
So much to chew on
Now I want to 351 a sport trac

 

[CDW6212R]

I'm going to throw this idea out there, dumb as it might sound but then...

A superlift front box kit will drop the front diff 2". 351 possible .
It would surely open doors of oil pan possibilities, cad diff clearance, oh, and headers would fit easier also . Much more area to run longer, thicker tubing at collector area. Your body lift helps clear on top.

302 or 351 parts , build will cost same. You'll get more torque with a good ol stock 351 block.

Check powernation 410 build. 450 lb ft from 2000 up on dyno. You'd only need to turn that to 5000 rpms to be grinning.

That's a great idea Jon if it makes the 351 conversion relatively easy. The 347 stroker(basic parts) I did price about 2.5 years ago, because the 302 costs are high enough it wasn't that much more for a 347 assembly. I found a local(120 miles from me) that advertised a 347 kit with balancer and flexplate, with balancing, and the nice Wiseco pistons, for $1300. That only added about $600 for the extra 40CI, given they said they'd deduct for the balancer. Then 2020 happened, they raised the price $100 or so, and then they became unavailable. So availability of so many things has made everything hit or miss(who has it, who has it on order, and will it ever come).

The 351 is strong enough and only the stock pistons and heads have to be junked(plus miscellaneous hardware). That engine size needs a good step bigger head than the small GT40 heads, so most of the low cost brand stuff is just about right for a lower rpm band DD, and regular gas.

I would prefer the GT40 intake, having it ported top and bottom, that Facebook guy for $300ish labor/shipping would be plenty. I was planning to have him do an Explorer intake for my 347 before deciding on the BBK SSI intake I got years ago. The Explorer intake is great on a 302 at 5000rpm, but for 347-358 it needs some port work, upper and lower.

 

[gmanpaint]

I get the 351 argument, I really do, but I loathe all drop bracket lift kits with a passion. I have done so much over the years to stay away from them. I am happy with the room made for the 35's, and do not need or want bigger tires on this mild use trail rig that sees many HWY miles. Even to use for shoe horning in a 351.

Sticking with already built crate engine with the simple bolt on engine parts, and simple as can be drop in line of thinking here.....
ATK has a couple of 347 options I was checking out yesterday. The 410HP 347 version is $1k more, and the 450HP 347 stroker version is $2.5k more. Both come with forged internals, better heads, and use the 164T flywheels with 28oz balancer's. The 410HP 347 version is very tempting. A power adder could be thrown on down the road if wanted. My only concern is the lope at idle, and on a trail climbing stuff. the 2800 stall makes sense for all of these as well and is something I planned on anyways with the engine out. If something happens to the rig, I could always re-use this engine in something else. The tuning is a factor for me tho, and will be a big hurdle to overcome. At least there are tuners in my area I can work with.

I seen a Ford guy on FB today that is porting our intakes, and am asking what all he does and for how much.

 

[traveler]

I get the 351 argument, I really do, but I loathe all drop bracket lift kits with a passion. I have done so much over the years to stay away from them.

LoL I knew when I read Jons post what you'd respond with. I still remember you telling me that once when I mentioned dropping the diff a "lil bit".
Still, to get a 351 in there... and maybe have room to install the vacuum disconnect to arrange "3-wheel drive"..... Hmmmmm....

 

[gmanpaint]

Started to swap the CV's out last weekend, but wasn't paying attention while on the stupid cell phone, and stripped out a caliper bracket bolt. Derp...

Spent the rest of the weekend searching for my tool bag full of all my extraction sockets..... Nope, the bag grew legs and walked off.
Went to 4 places before I found a set over the week. Seems these are extremely rare around me. (wtf)

Today, I got the bad bolt off. it's a 10.9 metric, 12x1.75, shoulder bolt with a head flange that gets 150 #'s thrown at it.
Went to 6 places to find a new bolt. Nope, these are even more rare. No luck. Found an all thread grade 5, no flange.
Plan is to to use it just until I find the right one, so the rig could be put back together.

Pulled out the 1.5 yr old perfectly fine CV from the drivers side, with the help of a prybar.
Put the new Extension to the old stocker for reference, and did some checking. Turns out they deffo have diff flex angles to them.

The inner shafts: Stock has 20* max. Extension has 27* max.
The outer shafts: Stock has 45* max. Extension has 23* max.
OK, that's odd, as I expected the Extension CV to have far greater angles then the stock, as advertised. Hmmm....

The middle shaft diameter: Stock is 1.089". Extension is 1.938". Almost twice as thick, as expected from the diagram sent to me, from the manufacturer.

They are different then the stockers for sure.
I measured the splines length on both of these drivers side CV's, and they match.

Ok, time to put the new one in, and see if the middle will clear my coil springs or not. Well, I soon discovered I have lost more strength then I realized at this point. Seems a few months of recuperating from a few heart surgeries, and not being active zapped most of it from me. I could not get the inner Clip on the spline shaft to compress and let the CV fully seat in the carrier. I fought it forever it felt like, before I gave up trying. Going to rest up, and try again tomorrow. I will update what happens, after I have more to report.

 

[DemonMudder]

Started to swap the CV's out last weekend, but wasn't paying attention while on the stupid cell phone, and stripped out a caliper bracket bolt. Derp...

Spent the rest of the weekend searching for my tool bag full of all my extraction sockets..... Nope, the bag grew legs and walked off.
Went to 4 places before I found a set over the week. Seems these are extremely rare around me. (wtf)

Today, I got the bad bolt off. it's a 10.9 metric, 12x1.75, shoulder bolt with a head flange that gets 150 #'s thrown at it.
Went to 6 places to find a new bolt. Nope, these are even more rare. No luck. Found an all thread grade 5, no flange.
Plan is to to use it just until I find the right one, so the rig could be put back together.

Pulled out the 1.5 yr old perfectly fine CV from the drivers side, with the help of a prybar.
Put the new Extension to the old stocker for reference, and did some checking. Turns out they deffo have diff flex angles to them.

The inner shafts: Stock has 20* max. Extension has 27* max.
The outer shafts: Stock has 45* max. Extension has 23* max.
OK, that's odd, as I expected the Extension CV to have far greater angles then the stock, as advertised. Hmmm....

The middle shaft diameter: Stock is 1.089". Extension is 1.938". Almost twice as thick, as expected from the diagram sent to me, from the manufacturer.

View attachment 435844
View attachment 435845
View attachment 435846

They are different then the stockers for sure.
I measured the splines length on both of these drivers side CV's, and they match.

Ok, time to put the new one in, and see if the middle will clear my coil springs or not. Well, I soon discovered I have lost more strength then I realized at this point. Seems a few months of recuperating from a few heart surgeries, and not being active zapped most of it from me. I could not get the inner Clip on the spline shaft to compress and let the CV fully seat in the carrier. I fought it forever it felt like, before I gave up trying. Going to rest up, and try again tomorrow. I will update what happens, after I have more to report.

I've had several tools do that to me lately, cant find 'em for the life of me!

Dont be rushing anything, still need to be taking it easy. Glad you're making some progress though! Just try not to overdo anything

 

[CDW6212R]

I think those are the same new brand I got too for one of my trucks, still boxed. I need to swap some around and get my Mercury back on front tires.

Do take it easy still, but keep active as much as you can. I just went to one of my best friend's funeral; my best friend lost his wife. She was always petite and fragile, but many many surgeries and last year a bout with cancer, she survived that but it sapped her strength. She didn't get up much after coming home in Spring, and she finally left, in her sleep.

I have a neighbor who is 89 years old and with many health issues, she is very stubborn and walks around a lot in her house and out in the yard. I think the mild exercise is keeping her alive. So keep moving, it will get better.